Tartessos: help me (us) build a fun scn...

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Exile on 04-14-2001 10:38 PM Firstly, my sources indicate that the period you're covering is at the cusp of the Bronze Age/Iron Age. It was apparently just at this time, in this region, that the transition from bronze weaponry to iron weaponry occurred. I would think about making that transition an essential part of the scenario.

Yes, that was one of the more important facts I wanted to somehow depict in the scn. I think that only Celts, Etruscans, Greeks and Carthaginians should have access to Iron Working techs.

One of the paths to victory playing as the Tartessians should require "trading" (not discoverying, which might be very easy and quite unrealistic) Iron Working techs from the Greeks or the Celts.

quote: One way to do this would be to give bronze-armed troops 1 hit point and iron-armed troops 2.

Yes, but I've read that the Greeks used to consider Tartessian bronze as a more valuable metal than any other bronze. Perhaps we could depict that making all Tartessian bronze units veterans?

quote: I have yet to find any substantial information on the ancient kingdom of Tartessos. The Penguin Atlas of Ancient History shows where it was and who was nearby, but doesn't tell me anything about force composition, culture, economy, or politics.

I think we've already got what we need for that. If you are interested, check the other thread about Tartessos (Tartessos: Help me defend Schulten's theoris), we had a number of interesting discussions there. For further information about Tartessos and about Adolf Schulten, feel free to contact me via email.

quote: What I have discovered is that this region was contested during this period by; Greeks, Phoenicians, Etruscans, Celts. And of course there were "native" elements; the Numidian kingdoms in north Africa and the Iberians.

So that proves that we made the right choice with the 7 Civs for the scn!

quote: Apparently, the Iberian penninsula was the source for mineral wealth during this period. My sources say that gold, tin, copper, lead, and especially silver were all abundant and sought after. Given that, I would certainly think about incorporating this idea of the western Mediterranean's "mineral storehouse" idea into the scenario.

Yes, we'll put in 5 special terrains for them. We don't really need Glaciers, Arctic and Jungle terrains, so at least three of those can be put as "actual" terrain squares, not just "specials", so they won't be randomly placed over the map.

quote: The beginning of the period is, however, characterized by the sharp sea battle off Alalia on Corsica between the Phocian Greeks and the Etruscans.

The Battle of Alalia was fought in 535 AD according to my references. The Etruscans were allies to the Carthaginians, and, according to Schulten, the Phocean Greeks were allied to the Tartessians. In fact, Schulten pointed out that this battle meant the "beginning of the end" for Tartessos, as after it, the Carthaginians could have free access to the Gibraltar Strait and to the Atlantic.

I look forward to your comments and to your take on the tech tree.

[Waku]

quote: Tartessos, la ciudad sin historia by Juan Maluquer de Motes La metalurgia ...la gran riqueza del paÃs en oro, plata, cobre, estaño, hierro y plomo fue... ...el perÃodo de mayor esplendor tartésico abarca desde mediados del VIII a mediados del VI AC, perÃodo que corresponde al desarrollo de la monarquÃa de Argantonio y perÃodo en el que se desarrolla el arte orientalizante... ...Nos hallamos ante tres grados de desarrollo técnico. En el primero, la metalurgia se limita al beneficio del cobre y el oro; luego se introduce el beneficio de la plata y el plomo, y se realizan los primero ensayos para endurecer el cobre mediante la adición de arsénico hasta descubrir el estaño. El uso del arsénico, que se obtenÃa como subproducto en los mismos yacimientos, se realiza principalmente en el sudeste, donde no existe estaño. Sólo cuando se conocerá el rico estaño aluvial de occidente, aparecerá el verdadero bronce. En el estadio tartésico se añade ya el beneficio del hierro. El conocimiento del hierro debió llegar a Tartessos a través de las colonias fenicias que lo utilizaban normalmente. ...el comercio de metal debió ser en su comienzo un simple comercio de recogida de chatarra y su transformación en lingotes representa una segunda etapa, puesto que requiere el establecimiento de fundiciones. ...los rÃos del sur y del oeste arrastraban arenas aurÃferas...serán explotados por lavado y decantación. El estaño se obtenÃa de igual forma...

quick translation:
rich in gold, silver, copper, tin, iron and lead
tartessian splendor from mid VIII BC to mid VI BC, with Argantonius (monarchy) and eastern style art...
Three technical degrees: first, copper and gold.
Second, silver and tin, first attempts to harden copper by adding arsenic later tin. Arsenic used in SE where there's not tin to be found. Bronze after finding Western alluvial tin (decanting).
Iron known through phoenician colonies.
Metal trade: First, metal scraps. Later, lingots smelting.

Souther & Weatern rivers: gold, decanting

[Fiera]

Gracias, Waku!

BTW, I take it that you're quoting from a printed source, not a web base one, aren't you? Is it a recent work? If so, I guess I might find it in the Complu library...

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by Fiera on 04-17-2001 08:43 PM Gracias, Waku! BTW, I take it that you're quoting from a printed source, not a web base one, aren't you? Is it a recent work? If so, I guess I might find it in the Complu library...

You're right, I've got the book with me.

TARTESSOS, La ciudad sin historia
Juan Maluquer de Motes
Ediciones Destino - Barcelona - 1985 http://www.edestino.es/d4_47.htm

[Waku]

quote: Tartessos por J. Maluquer de Motes ...A fines del siglo VII, pero con seguridad durante el VI, se extenderá el uso del torno rápido y del horno de temperatura elevada. Tartessos inaugurará la primera producción industrial de cerámica en España

quote: Tartessos by J. Maluquer de Motes ...late cent.7th BC, but for sure during 6th, the use of the quick potter's wheel and high temperature oven extended. Tartessos opened the first industrial pottery production in Spain.

[Exile]

Fiera, here are some of my thoughts about an ancient period tech tree.

First of all, I'd like to talk about some concepts. A civ2 scenario is an abreviation of the entire civ2 game, so, when making an alternative tech tree, it's a good idea to start by looking at the default techs that suit the scenario. There is no rule that says one must change everything. When it comes to technological advancements, the civ2 tech tree is not a bad place to start. Some default techs should probably be used for your scenario. I would suggest that Alphabet & Writing be used, possibly renamed basic and widespread literacy. Rename Warrior Code to Archery and don't make it a preq for anything else. You might alternatively rename it Missle Weapons and make both Archer and Slinger units available with this tech.

"Industrial pottery production"; This is an important distinction to make, and one that illustrates some changes that I would suggest to the basic tech tree. During this period, when scholars talk about pottery, they are not speaking about the basic ability to create terra cotta utensils, but to the manufacture of pottery for various and specific uses. I would suggest that you rename the default Pottery tech something like Food Storage (leaving the Granary improvement assigned to it) and assign the name of Pottery to another tech. The tech then called Pottery should be a preq for a "Trade" tech, together with seafaring. Seafaring itself should have Mapmaking (renamed Shipbuilding) and Local Trade (a new tech) as its preqs. There is a point to be made here. No single tech should be assigned as the "Trade" tech. Instead, there should be several techs that deal with the expansion of trade, beginning with Barter, Local Trade, a Mediterranean Trade, and then a Trade Networks or maybe Trade Culture tech. The reason; the Halstatt culture in central Europe during this time certainly traded, and with the Mediterranean centers, but they had no local pottery industry, and one simply cannot compare the trade practised by these people with the ongoing, widespread, and politically important trade in the Mediterranean. The expansion of trade networks was not simply a change in outlook, but also required the acquisition of appropriate technologies, hence a ladder of "trade" technologies. Additionally, I would suggest that The Wheel be a preq for the new Pottery tech. The potter's wheel was an essential element of the type of pottery mass production practised by the Mediterranean (primarily Greek) cultures. I would rename Construction Architechture (sp?) and make Masonry and Bridge Building its preqs. Masonry and Basic Literacy would be the preqs for Metallurgy tech, which would be a preq itself for Bronze Working, which would then be a preq for Iron Working. Metallurgy and Mathematics would be preqs for Currency, and Currency (together with one of the maritime techs,) would be one of the preqs for one of the advanced "trade" techs, (possibly the Trade Culture tech). I would assign the basic defensive units to metallurgy, not Bronze working, and each successive metal working breakthrough would allow the building of new, more effective units. Bridge Building should have Masonry and Mathematics as preqs, and the "catapult" type units (I would recommend several types) would be available with a Siege Warfare tech, possibly with Iron Working and Architechure as preqs. There is a pattern here. Increasingly sophistication in the activity of trade went hand-in-hand with increasing levels of sophistication in nautical technologies. There was a clear "ladder" effect. A basic Shipbuilding tech should be the preq, together with Local Trade, for a Seafaring tech, which itself should be a preq for Navigation tech, together with Astronomy. This Navigation tech, together with Currency, should be the preq for Mediterranean Trade.

Military techs; During this period, Halstatt Celts were still using chariots, but only chieftains could afford them. Archeology in Spain has also revealed chariots in Tartessian burials, so this unit should probably be very basic and easily obtainable, and not as powerful as the default unit. I would suggest, especially for the Celts, a Warband unit that was very powerful, but very expensive and could only be produced if the Celtic population becomes extremely dense. I would create a separate, civ-specific tech for this unit. The Phalanx unit is a good idea, but I would give it a higher defense value for this scenario, because its usefulness will, historically, remain throughout the scenario. A 3 defense rating sounds good, but playtesting should reveal the soundness of unit numbers. The Phalanx unit should be tied to Bronze Working and possibly civ-specific Phalanxes are advisable. Almost needless to say, better ships should be assigned to better nautical technologies. I would rename Caravans to Trade Goods and it might be novel to create several types of these, possibly some with their own nautical mobility.

Details; I would rename Sanitation to Hygiene and its preqs would be Architechure and (Widespread) Literacy, and tying the Sewer System improvement to it. I would make the preqs for Polytheism Astronomy and Mysticism, but leave the Ceremonial Burial>Mysticism>Astronomy progression alone. Philosophy's preqs would be Mediterranean Trade and Polytheism. University, renamed Academe', would have Philosophy and mathematics as preqs.

This is all pretty basic stuff, rough ideas, and derives from the reading I've been doing through the past week. If this meets with your approval, let me know and I'll see about filling in some more detail. As an aside, thinking about the "Ancient" variant tech tree has sparked some thoughts about putting together my own Ancient Mediterranean scenario. We'll see what happens . . .

Salutations,
Exile
[This message has been edited by Exile (edited April 20, 2001).]

[Jay Bee]

Exile, could you elaborate a bit on this?:

quote: Archeology in Spain has also revealed chariots in Tartessian burials,

Fiera,

don't be so much concerned about sticking to the book. I mean, I do not see why you can't take all the liberties you want for tha sake of improving playability issues. Do not forget that, no matter what other fellow posters may think , Tartessos is still no more than a myth. You must keep that in mind all the time, I think

[Exile]

JayBee; in Barry Cunliffe's Prehistoric Europe, An Illustrated History, on page 341, paragraph 4, "On the outskirts of the settlement, at La Joya, lay a cemetery where some of the local Tartessian elite were buried in the seventh century. In one, tomb 17, the dead noble was provided with a chariot of walnut wood decorated with bronze and accompanied by an ivory box, and a set of ritual bronze vessels comprising a jug, a dish, and an incense burner." In academic terms, this book is a survey, not a monograph, but it is a dependable and recent survey. I used other sources for my suggestions, but Cunliffe's book was invaluable.

Salutations,
Exile

[Jay Bee]

Oh okay, you were talking about Tartessos in operative (geographical) terms. I missed the chariots in my Celts and Iberians scenario. My sources did not describe that finding. But thinking it twice, it was not that hard to figure out on the basis of the phoenician influence over the area

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 04-21-2001 07:48 AM Tartessos is still no more than a myth

He he! OK JB, whatever you say , but we need a name for the southern iberian tribe strongly influenced by phoenicians and greeks, and technologically more advanced than the rest of celtic/iberian tribes in northern Spain.

Luckly Tartesos or Tarschis don't differ much from the name romans gave to these people (Turdetans, known as the more advanced tribe in Hispania), on the other hand the myth fits prety well with this part of Spain.

The question would be: can we use the name Tartessos to refer to these people? I think so.

[Jay Bee]

quote: Originally posted by Waku on 04-21-2001 10:54 AM The question would be: can we use the name Tartessos to refer to these people? I think so.

I never said otherwise. What concerns me is to see a city called Tartessos somewhere in Western Andalusia or that the Tartessian ruler is called Argantonius That's the mythical thing I was referring to.

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 04-21-2001 11:02 AM a city called Tartessos somewhere in Western Andalusia or that the Tartessian ruler is called Argantonius

sigh! if only I could use my search skills to find it!

BTW nice to read you again

[Jay Bee]

Waku: Thankx

Hey Fiera, here's an idea. Cos I am pretty sure you will add a Tartessos city in the middle of Doñana why do not you take advantage of Kobayashi and Allard's discoveries and place it so big that it occupies four tiles (a la X-Com starships in the FW scenario)? Before anybody starts wondering about JayBee's mental health lemme say that I am being quite serious with that suggestion

[Fiera]

Waku,

gracias de nuevo por lo del libro! And for the quotes as well, it seems a very interesting work, I'll try to find it here.

Oh, and thanks for supporting my cause against the "infidel" Jay Bee...


Exile,

your idea to make a good use of the default Civ2 tech seems pretty right to me. I had already talked about that with Chris, I think we don't really need to overcomplicate the tech tree, just make it more fun and interesting than the default Civ2 for the period we plan to depict.

I 100% agree with your thoughts about Trade. I think making a "ladder" of Trade techs, you add a fun aspect to the game which is also related to the actual period of the scn.

The Architecture idea sounds also good. Scholars have pointed out how basic the Tartessian architecture was, so now Masonry should only be available to Tartessians, Celts, Numidians and Ibers, while the Greeks, Cats, and Etruscans should have knowledge of the "true" Architecture, which would allow things like Aqueducts and maybe improved Temples, FE.

Regarding siege warfare, I think that the first step should be the Battering Ram (Greek accounts tell that it was invented in the siege of Gadir by a wise Carthaginian), and that we should not go too far away in siege techs ('cause we only plan to expand until 509 bC). Maybe Ballistas after Battering Ram, and then Catapults will be OK, what do you think?

quote: I would suggest, especially for the Celts, a Warband unit that was very powerful, but very expensive and could only be produced if the Celtic population becomes extremely dense.

This seems very interesting, but how can we implement it?

I agree with what you say about Phalanxes. Civ-specifics graphics won't be a problem, I think.

quote: I would rename Caravans to Trade Goods and it might be novel to create several types of these, possibly some with their own nautical mobility.

Hmm... I think you can't assign the sea domain to a Trade unit, but everything else sounds right to me.

Regarding Philosophy and Academe, it would be fine, but they don't seem very historical taking in mind what map we have, and Philosophy would mean a great advantage to the first player to discover it, wouldn't it?

quote: If this meets with your approval, let me know and I'll see about filling in some more detail.

Yes, please, I for one think that your basic approach deserves a big thumbs up. If you'd like to consider the comments I've posted about and maybe include a few new ideas, I think then we'll almost have a complete and very interesting tech tree for the game. Thanks again for your work!

quote: As an aside, thinking about the "Ancient" variant tech tree has sparked some thoughts about putting together my ownAncient Mediterranean scenario. We'll see what happens . . .

Hmm... bad news, since that will mean competition for me...


Jesús,

I think we won't stick that much to the book, but at least I'd like to give some tribute to Schulten, since some people, as FE you , seem to take his work not very seriously...

However, if you're up again to some historical discussion, the other thread is still waiting for new comments (I made some interesting and more modern readings and I've got some things to tell you about the "historical" Tartessos...)

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 04-21-2001 11:25 AM Hey Fiera, here's an idea. Cos I am pretty sure you will add a Tartessos city in the middle of Doñana

Haha, yes, sure I will...

quote: why do not you take advantage of Kobayashi and Allard's discoveries and place it so big that it occupies four tiles (a la X-Com starships in the FW scenario)?

Yes, it's a good idea... However if the AI places its unit over the "urban" terrain, the hard work will be "lost", 'cause the player will hardly be able to admire it...


[This message has been edited by Fiera (edited April 21, 2001).]