The Pope and CNN

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by VetLegion

The Roman catholic Church lost a member that day.

This is the problem with you mericans. You can not treat the Church like a commodity. You can't just leave the Church. The guy wasn't serious in the first place.

He was in love with her, he had hoped that in their life together they could make an accomodation that respected each other's faith. His priest promised to make an arrangement for a joint service, then reneged. His church reneged on him, not the other way around.

In the end maybe he felt that his church wasn't serious about him. That's important too.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by obiwan18


Dr. Strangelove:

Interesting. Not very many Baptist-Catholic joint marriages. I'd like to know more about the details, what kinds of arrangements were needed to accomodate both traditions.

Since the arrangement was cancelled I don't know much about the details. I believe that the general idea was that both a Catholic priest and a Baptist pastor would have been present. He and his bride had worked together with the two to write a ceremony that would have dove tailed the rights used by the two denominations together into one ceremony. The Baptist pastor had even agreed to allow the use of real wine. Since the Catholic priest backed out then most of what would have been his part of the ceremony was deleted.

In this part of the country there aren't that many Roman Catholics. In an area of about 140,000 people there are only two Roman Catholic churches. That means that many young Catholics really don't have a much of a choice about marrying outside of the faith. They would either have to do so, or leave the area, or convince their prospective spouse to convert or accept a life of chastity.

[Ben Kenobi]

Thanks Dr.Strangelove.

I wander which clause would have been the sticking point for the priest?

Still a shame about the service.

As for conversion, starting to seriously wonder... we'll see what happens over the next while or so.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by VetLegion
And by the way, I think you can be present in say a protestant church during a ceremony but you must not partake in it (in any way). You must not pray or sing or whatever. Makes sense for Pope to whine about that, you can't simply have people running around erasing differences between religions

Like I said above, my church willingly permits me to attend services of any other Christian denomination. We embrace Christian brotherhood openly. In the history of Christianity there has been too much suffering initiated by religious bigotry and chauvinism. A good example of that would be the conflicts that have devastated certain areas of southeast Europe in the past ten years. We're part of the solution. How about yourself?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Felch X
It's not about membership tallies, it's about the Church. Some Protestant denominations reject basic tenets of Church doctrine, and virtually all reject transubstantiation, the most important part of Catholicism. The Church can't in good conscience tell people it doesn't matter what they believe. It has an obligation to set a variety of standards, and Baptists, among others, don't meet those standards.

Does every Roman Catholic service rehash every last article of Roman Catholic doctrine down to the most minute detail? A Baptist service might not affirm the doctrine of transubstantiation, but I don't think you'd find it renouncing it either. You would probably notice that certain doctrines that are a feature of Roman Catholic services are missing in the Baptist one. I fail to see how this would subvert your faith.

On the other hand my brother's wife is Indian and they had a Hindu wedding without any hitches. The sacrament of marriage is only between the two being married, and does not require a priest any more so than baptism. The priest functions as a witness on behalf of the Church, not as a third party to the sacrament. Not that you asked, I just felt like rambling.

I was under the impression that marriages and baptisms had to be presided over by at least a deacon.

[VetLegion]

His church reneged on him, not the other way around.
In the end maybe he felt that his church wasn't serious about him. That's important too.

Well I don't know about that case. But here is another example of church rigidity - you can only marry in church once. Since USA has a high level of divorces does Catholic church also loose members because they can not remarry in church after a divorce?

Like I said above, my church willingly permits me to attend services of any other Christian denomination. We embrace Christian brotherhood openly. In the history of Christianity there has been too much suffering initiated by religious bigotry and chauvinism. A good example of that would be the conflicts that have devastated certain areas of southeast Europe in the past ten years. We're part of the solution. How about yourself?

Hey, ecumenism is cool

But your church does not accept the supreme authority of Pope. So if you yourself would be accepting it you would be sinning against your church although it would not be something morally wrong.

What I am saying is churches are not about the big picture they are about details, so I am defending the right of the Pope to whine about details, although I personally don't care about them

I was quite annoyed for example at the prospect of including references to god in the european constitution, something Pope insisted on. Thank god it didn't pass. But it was his job to try to push it through.

And you would be wrong. My girlfriend comes when she can and is not restricted from singing, and participating in the services. May this be a local difference in Croatia?

If you think someone will ask you for an ID in church, ofcourse not

What I am saying is that it is natural for church to not want you to go to services of other churches, why is this shocking you people

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by VetLegion
[Well I don't know about that case. But here is another example of church rigidity - you can only marry in church once. Since USA has a high level of divorces does Catholic church also loose members because they can not remarry in church after a divorce?

I'm not sure. The divorce rate among Roman Catholics in the US is about the same as for everybody else. I suspect that the church turns a blind eye in most cases.

But your church does not accept the supreme authority of Pope. So if you yourself would be accepting it you would be sinning against your church although it would not be something morally wrong.

Where in the typical mass do you affirm the doctrine of Papal supremacy? If you merely offer up a prayer on his behalf, that's cool, we usually offer a prayer for our vicar, bishop, and archbishop on most Sundays too.

What I am saying is churches are not about the big picture they are about details, so I am defending the right of the Pope to whine about details, although I personally don't care about them

I disagree. Christ was not nitpicker. I recall certain passages about "when two or three are gathered..." and also something about "....a sounding brass..."

What I am saying is that it is natural for church to not want you to go to services of other churches, why is this shocking you people

So you're saying that we Episcopalians are unnatural? Oh great, now we're in the same category as gays and lesbians!
God is supernatural. Shouldn't the faithful aspire to transcend their nature as well?

[VetLegion]

I'm not sure. The divorce rate among Roman Catholics in the US is about the same as for everybody else. I suspect that the church turns a blind eye in most cases.

You are not excommunicated (spelling?), only not allowed to remarry in church. This is 100% sure and there is no turning a blind eye to it. I was comparing it to the guy you were talking about who left Catholic church because it would not provide him a service he wanted. If people would leave church because of that, scores would be leaving because they can not remarry (another refused service)

Where in the typical mass do you affirm the doctrine of Papal supremacy? If you merely offer up a prayer on his behalf, that's cool, we usually offer a prayer for our vicar, bishop, and archbishop on most Sundays too.

In every mass there is that prayer that starts with "I believe..." and then you enumerate and there is a line .. "in the Holy Catholic Church" .. etc. Explicitly says. I do not think your church would allow you to partake in that prayer. If it does then ... you are catholic and you didn't even know it

So really it is easier to say "dont go to other's masses" then "you can go but be silent on the following verses .. "

I disagree. Christ was not nitpicker. I recall certain passages about "when two or three are gathered..." and also something about "....a sounding brass..."

You lost me there. I only read Bible Comic as a kid and frankly I think it is all downhill after Jews stopped killing unfriendly tribes and make war and all that. The part about Jesus was

And I still say churches are about details no matter what Christ says. As dumb as that sentence is.

God is supernatural. Shouldn't the faithful aspire to transcend their nature as well?

this is theology territory and I humbly withdraw as I know nothing of it.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by VetLegion
You are not excommunicated (spelling?), only not allowed to remarry in church. This is 100% sure and there is no turning a blind eye to it. I was comparing it to the guy you were talking about who left Catholic church because it would not provide him a service he wanted. If people would leave church because of that, scores would be leaving because they can not remarry (another refused service)

Well, with somewhere between 30 to 40% of all marriages ending in divorce, Catholic or not, there must be some explanation of their ability to hold onto 30% of the Christian population in the US as adherents. What I'm thinking is that if they continually kicked out 30% of their congregation (over the life time of their parishoners) their numbers should gradually drop, so it's my guess that many Catholics who get divorced somehow manage to stay members of the Catholic church.

In every mass there is that prayer that starts with "I believe..." and then you enumerate and there is a line .. "in the Holy Catholic Church" .. etc. Explicitly says. I do not think your church would allow you to partake in that prayer. If it does then ... you are catholic and you didn't even know it

You're talking about the Niceane creed, which is a part of every Episcopal service, and is also used in many other protestant denominations. It's been part of the Christian tradition for over a millenium. When protestants say the creed they're not referring to the Roman Catholic Church, thought, but instead are affirming their faith in the greater church body formed by all the faithful of every denomination.

God is supernatural. Shouldn't the faithful aspire to transcend their nature as well?

this is theology territory and I humbly withdraw as I know nothing of it.

Oh, you're just too easy.

[Ben Kenobi]

Vetlegion:

What I am saying is that it is natural for church to not want you to go to services of other churches, why is this shocking you people.

Well, she has permission from her priest. It's not like she's sneaking around going to my church and all.
It also helps that Mennonites are building the pews in her Catholic church.

If it does then ... you are catholic and you didn't even know it

The Holy catholic church?

You mean I am Catholic, and I never knew so?

So really it is easier to say "dont go to other's masses" then "you can go but be silent on the following verses .. "

Well, I admit I have to skip some songs, particularly the intercession of saints.

Not sure about a rosary though. Been to several so far.

Dr. Strangelove:

Transubstantiation is the only reason I cannot take the bread and wine at a Catholic mass. That is why I am curious as to the joining of both traditions, since I see no way to accomodate the Catholic rites, with Protestants. I suppose they could accept the Protestant rites, since there is nothing barring a Catholic from accepting communion within a Protestant church.

[Jon Miller]

my church doesn't have the nicene creed

I actually haven't gone for over a month, my problem is that I jsut haven't been waking up early enough

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

I don't think my church sees anything wrong with going to other churches

there is the whole sunday versus sabbath thing

and also, I have eben to a few other services (like lutheran) and it seemed a little weird

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

What church do you go to John?

Another plus for Catholics, services at 8pm on Sundays.

I have trouble too, until I got set in a routine now I always wake up at the same time on Sundays.

[Jon Miller]

I am a SDA

I like a lot of the doctrinal things (as I understand them)

(such as the state of the dead being nonexistence and the like)

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

(I admit that there are some beleifs that I either do not understand or disagree with, and also that many members in the SDA church seem prone to hypocrasy)

Jon Miller