Tell me what to think (the issue of gay marriages)

[red_jon]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Where's the concrete evidence that sexuality is fixed, Boris?

There's no concrete evidence to show either way, though it is a very subjective issue.

I personally, though I am only 18, have always been gay - since around the age of 12 (the start of puberty). In that time I have never had a single sexual fantasy or urge towards a woman. I would consider my sexuality to be fixed (not that I'd have a problem if it wasn't, I'm just stating fact).

And about mixed race marraiges - plenty of religious people did used to oppose it (and you'll find some backwards people still do). IThey would argue that it isn't about rights (And I think your wrong in your statement that Christians are always for human rights - Christians obviously do not hold a consensus of opinion). They would argue that people of different colours were obviously not meant to be together. You could use many of those arguments in ones against same-sex relationships.

[Al B. Sure!]

They would argue that people of different colours were obviously not meant to be together. You could use many of those arguments in ones against same-sex relationships.

What about Islam which also is against homosexual acts but has always been against racism?


thanks

[Giancarlo]

I see no problem with gay marriages and don't understand why some think religion must dictate the lives of all people. I am existentialist atheist, so religion has no part to play in my life.

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Albert Speer


What about Islam which also is against homosexual acts but has always been against racism?


thanks

I'm not saying either is right or that they are the same thing. Islam may be for mixed race marraige but against homosexuality but that doesn't mean it's right (personally I'm no big fan of Islam - one of my friend's family is Islamic and it's pretty opressive).

The fact is these arguments were used (obviously wrongly) against mixed race couples - and by theiests, athiests and agnostics.

[Al B. Sure!]

by the way, i read what was said here and i'm still undecided.

In day to day actions I would be tolerant to gays but ultimately, on a political and philosophical level, i can not accept homosexuality (or homosexual acts). I do think that homosexuality does have detrimental effects on society. Like I've said on this site before, I am mostly disturbed by flamboyant homosexuality (we're here and we're queer ****) and am against it but, while opposed to homosexuality in theory, I do have respect for good people who are gay as long as they are reasonable about it and not flamboyant.

as for the issue of marriages, I still don't know. I've debated this for years so I've thought about many things that was said here and this is probably the one issue that i am ambivalent about and have no stance.


thanks

[Giancarlo]

I don't think homosexuality causes any bad things to society. However in my opinion, I am also disturbed at people shoving their sexuality in other people's faces.. and I am gay. If people are responsible, have honor and integrity I will so respect them and be their friends... gay or straight.

[Al B. Sure!]

red_jon:

you're missing my point... the reasons why Islam is against homosexuality (which i actually don't know specifically) were never used to show the 'sin' of mixed marriages (which also have the problem of being undefineable... it's clear enough when someone is a male or not but whats the barriers between races? is a german and irish couple a mixed race marriage? Christian and jew? black and white?)... so Islam's reasoning against homosexuality has nothing to do with race even if Christianity's reasoning against homosexuality was used for racist purposes.


Fez:

damn straight... why were all the existentialist philosophers except Nietzsche leftists? It seems like marxist existentialism is an oxymoron.


thanks

[Giancarlo]

Well I like Camus but he was somewhat of a socialist. Nietzsche is my favorite. I am gay so what... I have dark hair... yeah whatever.. I don't really care about those things. It is what is in the heart that makes the person. Sexual orientation is just a feature like eye or skin color that shouldn't be discriminated against.

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
red_jon:

you're missing my point... the reasons why Islam is against homosexuality (which i actually don't know specifically) were never used to show the 'sin' of mixed marriages (which also have the problem of being undefineable... it's clear enough when someone is a male or not but whats the barriers between races? is a german and irish couple a mixed race marriage? Christian and jew? black and white?)... so Islam's reasoning against homosexuality has nothing to do with race even if Christianity's reasoning against homosexuality was used for racist purposes.

Ah, OK. I misunderstood.


When I think of my future I do picture it as eventually being married (and if the circumstances are right to give it a decent upbringing) have a kid.
Being gay is part of what I am but it does not determine who I am. In the future I want to settle down and have a family life - the fact that I am attracted to men as opposed to women does not alter that fact.

The problem with being gay becoming the identity of some gay people is, IMO, due to the reaction people give gay people. Even with those who aren't against it, people view you a certain way once they know you're gay. For some, this labelling causes them to adopt a stereotypically 'gay' persona.

IRL people do not know I'm gay by looking at me or by talking to me - not that I make a secret of it.

[statusperfect]

On the topic: Gay marriage is evil.

Ingore this: Hey Fez nice to see you I thought you were dead from poly. I made a post on how much poly misses you yesterday but it was closed by Ming Please visit us at Zen Café

[Al B. Sure!]

also it should be noted that Abe Lincoln and other abolishionists based their ideas on the bible... John Brown truly was a religious fanatic... interesting how the same piece of writing could be used to justify slavery as well as show it as an evil


thanks

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
also it should be noted that Abe Lincoln and other abolishionists based their ideas on the bible...

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession."

-- Abraham Lincoln

[Ben Kenobi]

I can't believe you say marriage has no value for those who choose not to have children. You ignore completely the legal issues of inheritance, insurance, benefits, medical decisions, taxes etc. in addition to the significance of the marriage on the relationship.

Frogman:

Tax wise, there is no difference in Canada between marriage and common law. I'm not sure about inheritance, or divorce, but I think marriage offers very few financial benefits over common law relationships, at least in Canada.

In the US, this may be very different.

significance of the marriage on the relationship.

This is the one I am not sure about. Many couples place very little value on the vows of marriage, 'until death do you part,' and so deny themselves the security of the marriage relationship.

While religion is involved in the process, this is not a religious issue. Its a legal one and a question of legal rights. It is up to the state and not religions to decide this though certainly everyone is free to express their opinion. Regardless of majority opinion, the state still has to prove that restricting the rights of same sex couples from getting married is constitutional. If its a question of rights, its not a majority rules decision.

One person's rights end where another person's rights begin. In allowing/approving homosexual marriage, the state is redefining what marriage means for everybody, not just for one segment.

This redefinition cannot be accomodated by Christianity, as they see marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

This is why I argue for common-law or domestic partnerships as a much better solution for this problem then marriage. That is the approach taken in Canada, and averts many of the complications surrounding freedom of religion.

BTW, I refrained from saying that marriage does not have any value for people who do not want children. I simply said that I do not see what value they could find. In other words, please show me because I do not know.

red_jon:

They would argue that it isn't about rights (And I think your wrong in your statement that Christians are always for human rights - Christians obviously do not hold a consensus of opinion).

On this issue? They should understand these points and the fact that they do not is symptomatic of their lack of biblical understanding. In this they have been negligent in their duty as Christians to understand their own teachings.

Christianity's reasoning against homosexuality was used for racist purposes.

Albert Speer:

You must be reading too quickly. Miscegenation came up earlier in the thread in response to a side point.

It has nothing to do with the main thrust of the thread, or why Christians believe homosexuality is a sin.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession."

-- Abraham Lincoln

Great quote, Boris. I am gonna use that one again in the future.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, to be fair you need a quote from Wilberforce.

With regards to his calling in Politics to oppose the slave trade:

"It would merit no better name than desertion," he wrote, "if I were thus to fly from the post where Providence has placed me."

http://acct.tamu.edu/smith/ethics/BP_Wilberforce.htm