Eight Thousand Years of Civilization ...gone

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by gunkulator


simple as that, eh? Didn't know you were an expert on looting prevention. Tell you what. Submit this plan of yours to the US military. If they accept it, then I'll admit you are right. Until then, I'll trust the military commanders in the field.

You obviously don't know that of all things, military leaders cannot be trusted.. Of course there are many that are smart and seize control of the situation, but sometimes tactical mistakes are made, and quite often too, even on the highest level... How many blunders that were made in WW1 (and 2) for example, due to the incompetence of the military leaders...

You don't need to be a rocketscientist to figure out how to protect a building such as this one

[gsmoove23]

gunkulator,

There are a number of buildings throughout Baghdad that have been protected without loss of any life. For one, the Defense Ministry right across from the National Library and not far from the National Museum. The Iraqi looters don't seem to be stupid and have not as of yet charged armed soldiers defending positions.

As for too few soldiers being in Baghdad, well there were plenty of people saying we needed more men, we needed to advance more cautiously... This is simply a side effect of our stategy, built to keep an unpopular war palatable to the public, go figure.

[Chemical Ollie]

This is even a worse cultural catastrophy than the allied bombing of Monte Cassino in WW2. But I am not surprised. I suppose Bush couldn't care less about some old pots he probably didn't even know of. He would probably order the bombing of the Pyramids if Usama or Saddam was hiding in one.

Very few events so far prove that the intentions of this war were to liberate Iraq. I think the intention was to increase the self-confidence of the American people by go kicking some ass, thus win Bush a second term. Just look at the Stars and Stripes-fanatics we see here every day. Getting oil and private police (!) contracts for the corporations that funded the last election campaign will not hurt either.



One example indicating the hidden intentions of the war is the training of the troops. The troops have been trained to kill and use overwhelming firepower, that's the only thing they know and that's what they do whenever a real or possible problem arises. Now that the official resistance is over, they don't seem to know how to act. They don't even seem to have learnt a single word in Arabic, despite months to prepare for the invasion. A liberation army that doesn't even speak the language? At every TV coverage I have seen of US troops acting at checkpoints, all commands are shouted in English. People who disobey commands run a high risk of getting shot by the troops who are afraid of suicide bombers. Thus the majority of the Iraqis who don't understand English should stay away if they want to survive.

[Drake Tungsten]

All of you who think Baghdad is such a safe place might want to review what happened in Umm Qasr. I don't want US soldiers taking any foolish risks until we are sure that all the irregular forces in Baghdad are neutralized...

[Drake Tungsten]

This is even a worse cultural catastrophy than the allied bombing of Monte Cassino in WW2. But I am not surprised. I suppose Bush couldn't care less about some old pots he probably didn't even know of. He would probably order the bombing of the Pyramids if Usama or Saddam was hiding in one.

Jesus, this is ****ing ridiculous. You act as if it were Americans who looted this museum. You act like the Americans intended for this to happen. It's certainly a tragic event, but put the blame on the people who deserve it: the Iraqi looters who had no compunctions about destroying their own cultural and historical heritage.

[S. Kroeze]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Sumer is the ancestor of all Western civilization. What we lost is (b)eyond comprehension.

Jeez, you'd think people on a site called Civilization would have a friggan clue!

It is indeed disturbing how many posters dismissed this disaster as the loss of 'some ancient artifacts'.

The objects in this museum were -from the viewpoint of cultural history- probably more valuable than the combined collection of ALL musea in the US.
This is worse than the sack of Rome! (410)

O Father Nanna, that city into ruins was made...
Its people, not potsherds, filled its sides;
Its walls were breached; the people groan.
In its lofty gates, where they were wont to promenade, dead bodies were lying about;
In its boulevards, where the feasts were celebrated, scattered they lay.
In all its streets, where where they were wont to promenade, dead bodies were lying about;
In its places, where the festivities of the land took place, the people lay in heaps...
Ur -its weak and its strong perished through hunger;
Mothers and fathers who did not leave their houses were overcome by fire;
The young lying on their mothers' laps, like fish were carried off by the waters;
In the city, the wife was abandoned, the son was abandoned, the possessions were scattered about.
O Nanna, Ur has been destroyed, its people have been dispersed!

(form the 'Lamentation over the destruction of Ur')

In 2004BC Ur was taken, sacked and burned down by the Elamites. This was the end of the oldest civilization of History.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Jesus, this is ****ing ridiculous. You act as if it were Americans who looted this museum. You act like the Americans intended for this to happen. It's certainly a tragic event, but put the blame on the people who deserve it: the Iraqi looters who had no compunctions about destroying their own cultural and historical heritage.

You started the war. Now you deal with the aftermath.

[Drake Tungsten]

You started the war. Now you deal with the aftermath.

You've done nothing to show that America is at fault for the museum's looting; all the cliche pronouncements in the world won't change that.

[Harovan]

The loss of irreplaceable artifacts out of the Historical Museum is indeed a big tragedy. The world will remember both the Iraqi criminals looting the museum, and the American troops letting it happen with their hands in the pockets. I feel really ashamed for those posters, who just shrug about this act of barbarianism or, even worse, try to justify it.

[Spiffor]

Drake :
In general terms, there are two entities responsible for crime :
- the criminals, of course
- the police, to some extent.
If a neighbourhood is riled with with crime, while the next one is calm, it can be a good idea to question the efficiency of the police in the crime-packed neighborhood. The inefficiency of the police isn't guilty of individual crimes, but it is guilty of the general trend.
In Baghdad, the only force that can do some policing right now is the US army. De facto, as the only organized force there, it is its duty to maintain order. Is the US army the culprit of the lootings ? No. Has the US army a responsibility in the general climate of anarchy ? Yes.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying "See ? The US should have posted 40 men there ! See ? SEE ?!", and I haven't done so in this thread. I actually find it pretty sad so many people use this catastrophe simply as another material to bash the US.

But you cannot dismiss some responsibility from the US army in that one. Not guilty, but definitely partly responsible.

[Jon Miller]

I still don't see anyone adressing the main point

why should the US have expected the IRaquesse to loot (And vandalise) their own museums?

would the PArisians loot the Louvre?

would any sane people loot and destroy their own cultural heritage?

I don't see why the US should have expected and planned for this occurance

in any real life event there will be things (both good and bad) that will be unplanned for and accidential

this is just one of the very unfortunatly occurances

Jon Miller

[Kc7mxo]

In general terms, there are two entities responsible for crime :
- the criminals, of course
- the police, to some extent.

Police can't/don't prevent crime. They capture criminals. Ask any cop. What certain people want is for the American military to become museum security guards.

[Adam Smith]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I think you people are forgetting, this wasn't just any museum. Imagine if the main museum in Egypt was sacked, looted, and vandalized. The world's main repository of Egyptology would be lost forever. The Museum of Antiquities is for Sumer, Babylon, Assyria, the Umyyad Dynasty, etc. what the main museum of Egypt is for ancient Egypt . . . at least it was. This isn't some po-dunk little museum. This is the sacking of the Library of Alexandria all over again.

This episode is very unfortunate, and I wish it had been prevented. Not to minimize the problem, but I wonder if we have an objective sense of what has been lost. The Germans undertook extensive archeological digs in Iraq in the early part of the 20th century. It was my understanding that many of the "A" list items were shipped off to the Pergamum Museum in Berlin (eg, Gates of Babylon) much as many "A" list antiquities from other cultures wound up at the British Museum (eg. Elgin Marbles, Rosetta Stone), Louvre (Venus de Milo, Winged Victory of Samothrace, Mona Lisa), and National Museum in Taipei (anything the KMT could have carried out of China). I visited the Pergamum Museum in 1992 and it certainly had more mid-eastern antiquities than either the British Museum or the Louvre. Does anyone have a better sense of how Iraqi antiquities got divvied up over the years?

[Drake Tungsten]

In Baghdad, the only force that can do some policing right now is the US army. De facto, as the only organized force there, it is its duty to maintain order.

This is where we disagree. I think that the duty of the US Army is to complete the prosecution of the war. If they can do that and police Baghdad at the same time, then fine, I agree that they should. I'm not so sure that the US could police Baghdad at the time the museum was looted, however, at least in a way that was palatable to both American leaders and the Iraqi populace (ie. without having many American soldiers or Iraqi civilians killed).

I actually find it pretty sad so many people use this catastrophe simply as another material to bash the US.

We're in agreement on this.

But you cannot dismiss some responsibility from the US army in that one. Not guilty, but definitely partly responsible.

I disagree again. I certainly wish that US forces had been there to avert the looting, but I don't hold them responsible in any way for what happened because they weren't there. That would be like blaming the French for the genocide in Rwanda; not intervening in a tragedy doesn't make you responsible for it (although you should probably feel some guilt about it).

[Drake Tungsten]

why should the US have expected the IRaquesse to loot (And vandalise) their own museums?

This is one of my main questions as well. I would never have anticipated that the Iraqis would loot their own museum, so it would be rather hypocritical of me to criticize US planners for not thinking of it.