Eight Thousand Years of Civilization ...gone

[gunkulator]

So why didn't France of Germany offer to dispatch human targets, er, guards, for this oh so precious museum? I'm sure the US would have gladly accepted them. Surely they saw the need, yes?

Let's get down to the fundamental equation:

Protecting ancient artifacts is worth endangering the lives of ____ soldiers.

Please provide an answer or kindly kwitcherbiatchin.

[Herzog]

"while a war is still going on"...please

[Herzog]

and the corolario of that formula


______is worth the lives of_________persons?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Static Universe


And surely some of these looted items while ultimately wind up in Western museums some day, or so the Iraqi's will fear after things settle down. They won't blame the looters, they'll blame the Americans.

Blair said in commons today that the British museum would be on the lookout for artifacts from Baghdad, would not buy them, and would try to get them returned to the Baghdad museum.

What we need is a UN resolution on this, calling on all nations to prevent trafficking in artifacts from the Baghdad museum. If the thieves and brokers cannot sell the artifacts for a profit, they may return them to the museum.

[gunkulator]

But Bush has already answered your question. He believes it is worth the lives of a hundred+ soldiers to liberate Iraq.

Ok, now it's your turn. Kindly answer the question.

[gsmoove23]

Right across the street, soldiers stationed at the defense ministry.

But even as some Iraqis sought to heal the city's wounds, others, fired by anger and revenge, broke through to the little that was left of untouched government buildings after four days of continuous looting. Among other buildings afire or still smoldering in eastern Baghdad today were the city hall, the Agriculture Ministry and so thoroughly burned that heat still radiated 50 paces from its front doors the National Library. Not far from the National Museum of Iraq, which was looted on Thursday and Friday with the loss of almost all of its store of 170,000 artifacts, the library was considered another of the repositories of an Iraqi civilization dating back at least 7,000 years.

By tonight, virtually nothing was left of the library and its tens of thousands of old manuscripts and books, and of archives like Iraqi newspapers tracing the country's turbulent history from the era of Ottoman rule through to Mr. Hussein. Reading rooms and the stacks where the collections were stored were reduced to smoking vistas of blackened rubble.

Across the street, a lone American tank roared out of the monumental gates of the Defense Ministry, untouched by the looters presumably because they knew that the ministry, at least, would be under close guard by American troops.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=68&ncid=68&e=1&u=/nyt/20030414/ts_nyt/baghdad_residents_begin_a_long_climb_to_an_ordered_city

[Ned]

From another story, it appears the police stayed home when the regime collapse because they feared for their lives. Police in Basra who patrol without the British present are attacked.

Perhaps Baghdad is different. But it does appear that we need, urgently, a large number of experienced police from outside Iraq. All nations should volunteer police forces immediately.

I know that Canada has volunteer police. So has Denmark. Anyone else? Egypt, for example?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
What we need is a UN resolution on this, calling on all nations to prevent trafficking in artifacts from the Baghdad museum. If the thieves and brokers cannot sell the artifacts for a profit, they may return them to the museum.

Most of this stuff is going to end up in private collections. There is a huge market for smuggled artifacts. This stuff is pretty much gone. We might recover 5% - 10% of what wasn't outright destroyed.

Those of you who think this is just sad really have no comprehension of what was lost. Baghdad as the capital of Islam for almost five hundred years. All those records are gone. It was the most important center for learning in the world during that time. The oldest translations of what Greek writings we have were there. The oldest examples of human writing on Earth were there.

Sumer is the ancestor of all Western civilization. What we lost is neyond comprehension.

Jeez, you'd think people on a site called Civilization would have a friggan clue!

[Carver]

This museum was unequalled in the world. If the US was going to protect one thing in Baghdad it should have been this. To standby and let the looters raid the place was inexcuseable. Whether the orders said ensure law and order or not, someone should have taken the initiative to say we can't let this happen. US troops wouldn't let one Iraqi murder another Iraqi right under their noses and this was worse than one murder.

And to be clear, no US troops would have to have killed any Iraqis. Just put the troops outside the complex and fire towards anyone trying to do something stupid.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Simply placing a tank and 10 soldiers would have prevented the looting

It also would've made that tank and those 10 soldiers easy targets for any hostile Iraqi forces still in the area. I hate to see a museum get looted, but I would also hate to see American troops get slaughtered because they're spread out all over the city protecting buildings while a war is still going on.

I never said these soldiers would have to stand wide open on a square ready to be sniped... Anyway that place was pretty safe, because you think remaining opposition forces would allow regular civilians to loot their buildings? Or do you think civilians would even dare loot if there is danger all around?... tsk

[Alex]

Sad, sad tragedy.

[DRoseDARs]

A few of you have already said what I was going to say in response. But I'll reiterate anyway...

First of all, it wouldn't have taken the entire military might of the US to prevent the looting. Rotating dozen-man teams to cover individual building would have been more than enough to prevent looting by Baghdad citizens.

Secondly, as far as engaging army forces, does anyone honestly believe the Iraqi people are stupid enough to riot and loot EN MASSE if they felt they were any longer in danger from Saddam's forces? Clearly, the moment the looting began was the moment Baghdad fell to Coalition forces. For the first time in 22 years or so, they felt "safe" to do as they please (just wish they'd found something else that was pleasurable to do instead of looting...like having a post-war Baby Boom of their own ).

Third, if defending the airport, defending the Oil, Agricultural, and Health and Publice Service ministries was worth ____ lives of soldiers, then protecting the hospitals, universties, and museum was worth the same number of soldiers lives.

Fourth, even though there was and still is some sporadic resistance in Baghdad, strategically securing a wide number of buildings throughout the city would make it easier for the Coalition to blanket the city and engage enemy forces in all directions. Modifying the island-hopping method used in the Pacific Theater of WWII, sections of the city of Baghdad could have been searched and secured rapidly due to the overwhelming number of ground forces in the city. Saddam's forces wouldn't have anywhere to run, anywhere to hide. Those that didn't surrender forthwith would have been dealt with swiftly, either captured or killed, and the city would have avoided a great deal of looting to start with. Likewise, rapid and wide deployment like that would have made policment (<- is that a word?) of the city come that much quicker.



Gunkulator, if you tell us how many soldiers were used to defend those three ministries and the airport in Baghdad, you'll have your aproximate answer as to how many soldiers the hospitals, the universities, and the museum were worth. Each of these installations were just as important to the present and future of Iraq, if not more so.

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Right across the street, soldiers stationed at the defense ministry.

But even as some Iraqis sought to heal the city's wounds, others, fired by anger and revenge, broke through to the little that was left of untouched government buildings after four days of continuous looting. Among other buildings afire or still smoldering in eastern Baghdad today were the city hall, the Agriculture Ministry and so thoroughly burned that heat still radiated 50 paces from its front doors the National Library. Not far from the National Museum of Iraq, which was looted on Thursday and Friday with the loss of almost all of its store of 170,000 artifacts, the library was considered another of the repositories of an Iraqi civilization dating back at least 7,000 years.

By tonight, virtually nothing was left of the library and its tens of thousands of old manuscripts and books, and of archives like Iraqi newspapers tracing the country's turbulent history from the era of Ottoman rule through to Mr. Hussein. Reading rooms and the stacks where the collections were stored were reduced to smoking vistas of blackened rubble.

Across the street, a lone American tank roared out of the monumental gates of the Defense Ministry, untouched by the looters presumably because they knew that the ministry, at least, would be under close guard by American troops.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...n_ordered_city

Hmmmmm....when the Taliban destroyed two old Bhudda statues the western world (and many a poster here) screamed bloody murder about their backward regime. Now we see a part of the world heritage getting ransacked and burned down right before our eyes. We had the means to stop it or at least preverve a part of it. But you know what we did it in the end?

NOTHING, we simply stood by and let it happen...

You know I a way I'm glad that many of those oh-so cultural clods on this forum are exposed for the moral hypocrites they are. Who gives a **** about a musuem and a couple of old vases? Who gives a **** about history anyway? Who gives a **** about lessons from the past?

The ultimate irony in all of this is that is supposed to be a site about civilization as mentioned by another poster. Seems that notion must have slipped us by. AH was damn right , the rot indeed has set in OT.
Gives you an important wakeupcall on where the average OT poster stands these days. I won't forget what was mentioned in this thread.

So much for the moral highground...

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
A few of you have already said what I was going to say in response. But I'll reiterate anyway...

First of all, it wouldn't have taken the entire military might of the US to prevent the looting. Rotating dozen-man teams to cover individual building would have been more than enough to prevent looting by Baghdad citizens.

simple as that, eh? Didn't know you were an expert on looting prevention. Tell you what. Submit this plan of yours to the US military. If they accept it, then I'll admit you are right. Until then, I'll trust the military commanders in the field.

Third, if defending the airport, defending the Oil, Agricultural, and Health and Publice Service ministries was worth ____ lives of soldiers, then protecting the hospitals, universties, and museum was worth the same number of soldiers lives.

These institutions represent the hope for the future for Iraq. Choices have to be made in war. Do you protect the past to save the future?

Fourth, even though there was and still is some sporadic resistance in Baghdad, strategically securing a wide number of buildings throughout the city would make it easier for the Coalition to blanket the city and engage enemy forces in all directions. Modifying the island-hopping method used in the Pacific Theater of WWII...

Again, I'm not an urban warfare expert and I suspect you are not one either. Typing words like "rapid deployment" or "island hopping" means nothing unless you know the tactical situation. Do you know a) the terrain, b) the number of snipers in the area, c) their weapons, d) cover positions for guards, e) access routes to and from the building, f) how clear the area is of Saddam's mercenaries, etc. I know I don't know so I'm not going to second guess the field commander who does know.

Gunkulator, if you tell us how many soldiers were used to defend those three ministries and the airport in Baghdad, you'll have your aproximate answer as to how many soldiers the hospitals, the universities, and the museum were worth. Each of these installations were just as important to the present and future of Iraq, if not more so.

You miss the point of the question. I'm asking how many lives YOU think are worth expending to secure the area. Tell me, in lives lost, what this museum is worth.

Oh and that's only part one of my question. Part two is: Compose a letter to the families of those who bravely fell defending this vitally important position. Be sure to explain exactly what they have given their lives for. Remember, YOU made this decision, not the US Military, so it is up to you to provide the rationale

Part three is extra credit: a voluteer form for those wishing, right now, to go over to Iraq and defend what is left of the museum. Any takers?

[Carver]

Originally posted by gunkulator

You miss the point of the question. I'm asking how many lives YOU think are worth expending to secure the area. Tell me, in lives lost, what this museum is worth.

Protecting treasures from the birth of civilization is worth many lives. But there would have been no more than 1 or 2 US casualties, probably none.

Oh and that's only part one of my question. Part two is: Compose a letter to the families of those who bravely fell defending this vitally important position. Be sure to explain exactly what they have given their lives for. Remember, YOU made this decision, not the US Military, so it is up to you to provide the rationale

They would have given their lives to save a huge portion of the heritage of the world. That is much more important and commendable than dying to seize an oil well before the Iraqis can set it on fire, or dying to "save" a village in Vietnam that doesn't want to be "saved."