Eight Thousand Years of Civilization ...gone

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Nope. Cuz the Allies took over governing the city right away.

In the Pacific, when Japan surrendered, the Allies required the Japanese troops to continue governing the areas they still held until Allied troops could arrive to relieve them and accept their surrender. We knew then that governence was important, not merely victory.

As an aside, in most cases this was done becuase local authorities were closely tied with Communists and the allies didn't want the Japanese surrender to result in Communist revolution across Asia (which did occur in the aftermath of the collapse of Japanese authority in Korea and Vietnam).

In this case, the IPA stuck around to govern until they could turn over control in an orderly manner.

How does it apply when an entire goverment, from top to bottom, takes its ball and goes home?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
In this case, the IPA stuck around to govern until they could turn over control in an orderly manner.

How does it apply when an entire goverment, from top to bottom, takes its ball and goes home?

Of course there are differences. The main differenes were an intact Japanese military structure and US government foresight. Not much we could have done about the first, but the second was completely within our control. When the looting began, the US government said, "Oh, this is no big deal. And we're not here to be police anyway." They were wrong on both counts. When you take over a country, you take over its administration. Given what happened during the last rebellion against Hussein, the US should have been prepared for this.

[chequita guevara]

BTW, I'm not saying we alone are too blame. First and formemost, the blame lies upon the Iraqi looters. But authority has a responsibilty to stop crime.

[Hueij]

I've always been confused by man's obsession with artifacts, relics, and other pieces of the past.

Museums bore the hell out of me, I think it's pretty irrational to be so attached to some objects just because they're famous and/or old.

Now that is the most stupid remark I ever read on these boards. This even surpasses anything Floyd said.

Little Ashie is bored so everything is okay...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Was there significant looting in Paris?

There was when the Nazis took over... but that was by the German government.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

I've always been confused by man's obsession with artifacts, relics, and other pieces of the past.

Museums bore the hell out of me, I think it's pretty irrational to be so attached to some objects just because they're famous and/or old.

ROTFL...

this is a classic

[DRoseDARs]

God, when I first heard about the museum I vomitted. Spiritually, I felt like I'd been raped. Violently. To lose SO MUCH of our history on account of PREVENTABLE looting... :weeps silently:

And that poor women giving the aftermath-tour to the journalists?

What enrages me is this b*llsh*t that the coolition didn't/doesn't have enough forces in the city to effectively police it. Of course they didn't/don't, but they had/have more than enough to protect a few vital/significant locations like the various government buildings (that hadn't been turned into smoldering craters), the universities, the hopitals...

...and the museum.

Although to the living, all of the other locations were of greater importance to the imediate needs of Baghdad and Iraq...

...the artifacts themselves have out-lived hundreds of generations of Humans. They represent portions of our collective cultural roots. Many biblical references find their origins in Mesopotamian mythology. The first Book of Law, the basis of ALL written law, was written there. God, I could go on, but...

We understand our present by learning about the past. But to dismiss this as simply "unfortunate" is very telling of how complacent Humanity has become (once again) to the importance of knowing History. Tired cliches aside, we NEED to know the How's and the Why's and the What's and the Who's and the Where's and the When's of the past if we are to make good sense of the Present and Future. How would the American public and the leadership of the US feel if the priceless artifacts that detail the culture of United States were inexplicably destroyed (looting, fire, war, whatever way)? The Liberty Bell, the Smithsonian Museum, old flags, the original drafts of the Declaration of Independance and the United States Constitution, the Statue of Liberty (though, I guess that doesn't count since it's French...funny how most of the anti-French rhetoric conviniently misses that fact). All gone. How much news coverage would their be? How long would the Congressional investigations go on? How wide would the search to recover the surviving artifacts extend? You damn well better believe the Bush Administration would be ALL OVER that sh*t in a split second.

In Baghdad, before ground forces reached the city, before they entered Iraq, even before the bombs fell, the museum tried to prepare for distruction...distruction that never came. No bombs hit the collection, no gun battles erupted within the museum's halls, the war didn't touch so much as a single shard of pottery. The curators knew almost immediatly what would happen instead. They saw the looting begin in the city and they BEGGED for Coolition forces to post a few soldiers as a deterrent to would-be looters. Where the soldiers have been, the looting has not been: the Oil Ministry, the Agricultural Ministry, and the Health (?) Ministry. One US or British soldier would be enough to scare off a dozen looters, five or so might have secured an entire museum. They have tens of thousands of troops in the vicinity of Baghdad, they could have easily secured every hospital, every university, every museum, every government building (not including the police stations).

Nothing will ever convince me they COULD NOT have done anything to prevent this tragedy of historical proportions. Our history books are littered with hundreds of instances of war; this war will be just another war like so many others.

But the loss of SO MANY pieces of antiquity? This event will be reviled and mourned by the acedemia for centuries, just like every instance of grave-robbing, every sacking of ancient cities, every burning/destruction of major cultural site (like the Buddha statues of Afghanistan), and the loss of major libraries built in ancient times (egypt had one, as did Meopotamia).



On a sidenote: Yes, museums can be boring as Hell, but they are the only place where we can see where our civilization comes from. No grainy photograph on a computer screen, no page torn out of a dusty book, no audio tape tour through an empty museum can ever replace what has been lost: parts of OUR identity...

EDIT: I've just finished reading a book on this very subject (cultural loss) and am now writting an essay on it for my 2nd semester World History class. I've altered the wording in the "Sidenote" paragraph to reflect what's going in at the end of that essay.

[JCG]

Other than mentioning that people who loot hospitals and museums should suffer strong physical punishment..

...I just hope *someone* with authority/cash manages to eventually buy/rescue at least some of those priceless artifacts now in criminal hands.

[gsmoove23]

Honestly, I think its sad that it takes the looting of a museum to get so many people upset. People are losing their livlihoods, homes and businesses are being looted and everything else but in the west it takes the destruction of something valuable to US for us to really take notice.

That being said I think the looting of the museum is awful, even though rationally I feel its no worse then any of the other looting going on.

[orange]

not our fault, but certainly felt like a good punch to the heart when I heard the news

[DRoseDARs]

First of all, I was against the war from happening in the first place, so I was already upset. Secondly, like I said, the coolition really doesn't have enough forces to effectively police THE ENTIRE CITY of Baghdad, let alone all of the other large cities in Iraq, while at the same time cleaning up the last of Saddam's forces. The coalition needed to pick a few vital (to the infrastructure of Iraq: utilities, industry, resources) locations to defend. Thirdly, it is worse to loot universities, medical centers, and museums than it is to loot businesses and homes because: A) Universities and other educational institutions are needed in order to introduce Iraqis to proper Democratic principles in an effective manner. If those institutions don't have the supplies they need, they're pointless. B) Hospitals go without saying. C) Museums are what give individual cultures and the whole world it's IDENTITY. Without that, were nothing more than generation after generation after generation of ants living and dying without any purpose, direction, or meaning. D) Material possessions can be reaqquired with time. Stores can be rebuilt. Homes can be reoccupied. Band-aids can be brought in. Books can be printed.

While the shelves of stores, closets of homes, storage rooms of hospitals, and classrooms of schools can all be refilled with the neccessary supplies, the museums won't recover for decades, maybe even centuries.

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by orange
not our fault, but certainly felt like a good punch to the heart when I heard the news

While it may not be anyone else's fault for the looting except the looters, it IS the coalition's fault for LETTING them loot in numerous places that COULD HAVE and SHOULD HAVE been defended. There is NO acceptable excuse for allowing the looting of the universities, the museums, nor the hopitals. The coalition didn't have the manpower to cover the ENTIRE city of Baghdad, but these are places that could have and should have been protected...

...And they didn't. For this, the blame squarely falls on their shoulders. Most of the looters may never be caught, but this failure to protect the most vital resources mustn't go unpunished. Someone should be held accountable for this.

[Agathon]

Independently of my other reasons for opposing the war I was really angry about this. Surely some knucklehead would have spared a thought for these priceless treasures. They did say that they were at pains to avoid damaging ziggurats and other ancient sites I hope they had a good reason for not protecting this museum.

Most of my work deals with antiquities so I have an idea of how the researchers who've devoted their lives to recovering this portion of our shared past are feeling right about now. Not only that, but Baghdad was once the centre of world learning and a repository of classical texts. Who knows what priceless fragments have been lost. It might seem odd, but in my line of work a single papyrus fragment or rediscovered piece of text can radically change the whole way we think about the ancients and it isn't like there was a whole lot left before this.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs


While it may not be anyone else's fault for the looting except the looters, it IS the coalition's fault for LETTING them loot in numerous places that COULD HAVE and SHOULD HAVE been defended. There is NO acceptable excuse for allowing the looting of the universities, the museums, nor the hopitals. The coalition didn't have the manpower to cover the ENTIRE city of Baghdad, but these are places that could have and should have been protected...

...And they didn't. For this, the blame squarely falls on their shoulders. Most of the looters may never be caught, but this failure to protect the most vital resources mustn't go unpunished. Someone should be held accountable for this.

Agreed. If the US thinks that the Iraqis might get mean, wait until hordes of angry archaeologists and historians come after them.

[gsmoove23]

I was against the war too, but I feel the fact that the US doesn't have enough troops to police the city is a serious design flaw in our strategy. People have been saying all along that we needed more troops and we may have rushed ahead too quickly in the hopes of keeping this war palatable to the public. Certainly not enough thought was put into how to administer captured territory beforehand.

Talking about the importance of cultural heritage is admirable but ultimately pointless to the Iraqi living on the edge of poverty who might have lost his livelihood or his most valuable possessions. He will undoubtedly not be thinking of the cutural or spiritual significance of the loss of such priceless artefacts.