Hey Hey USA, how many journalists did you kill today?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


I can certainly understand the fatigue argument. I certainly can't work 18-20 hours a day without making mistakes.

But that then brings up another question: is it really necessary? I can see the point of blitzkrieg during the first attack and for strategic objectives (e.g. to secure the oil-fields and strategic bridges etc.), but at this stage in the war, is it really needed? I would have thought that, with total air superiority, the coalition has enough troops and war-planes to not have to operate 18-20 hours a day? Even if just for the sake of morale.

I realise that soldiers don't care much for politics but now that the military campaign is almost over, the political war to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people becomes increasingly important. That objective isn't going to be met when accidentally killing civilians.

I think one of the reasons that they are in a big hurry aside from the likelihood that our own casualties will be lessened as well as the enemy's, is the humanitarian crisis is only going to get worse with time. The sooner the regime collapses the sooner these troops can get to work restoring order and getting the electricity and water running again. Casualties from bad water will make these friendly and accidental fire incidents pale in comparison.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Sikander
What the hell do you know about it? Not all that much if you think an "armoured column" consists entirely of civilian 4x4s, which the column struck in the north was. Check out the BBC correspondent's story for verification.

What the hell does it matter how much I know about it? It shouldn't have happened! The guys who were bombed were the guys who called for the airstrike (to hit Iraqi armour). If they had no armour that makes it even worse since it implies that the pilot, as you put it, didn't know "all that much".

[Hurricane]

**** happens in war, everybody knows that. But what pisses me off is that I get the impression that the US army seems to think that these incidents are perfectly ok. Since the times of the US rebuttal of the international war crimes tribunal, it seems the US generals have decided that US soldiers can't do anything wrong.

[Lincoln]

No one thinks it is "OK" to kill your own people.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


What the hell does it matter how much I know about it? It shouldn't have happened! The guys who were bombed were the guys who called for the airstrike (to hit Iraqi armour). If they had no armour that makes it even worse since it implies that the pilot, as you put it, didn't know "all that much".

While I agree that it isn't what we wanted to happen, I find your assertion that the U.S. Air Force is somehow inadequately trained to be laughable. By that standard every Air Force in the world is inadequately trained. Btw, there was a knocked out Iraqi T-55 near the friendly forces that probably drew the pilot onto the wrong group. Add to that the fact that this group was using non-military vehicles and was armed to the teeth much like many of the irregular forces that we are fighting and the error is easier to understand. I think everyone involved is sick about it, and it would be nice to find a way to avoid this sort of thing, but I have to look at the bigger picture. We have taken a lot of ground from a lot of very well armed people, and our casualties have been miniscule in comparison. Part of this happens because of our methods of waging war, which alas do not preclude friendly fire incidents.

[Hurricane]

No one thinks it is "OK" to kill your own people.

I haven't heard any military statement like "that was an unfortunate incident, we will re-evaluate our procedures" or "this was done against army regulations, we will investigate why the rules were broken" or "seems our guys made a bad decision based on wrong information, we will do out best to give the grunts first-class info all the time".

No, instead we just hear "they were taking fire" when lots of reporters are there to witness that nothing like that occured, or "first they were firing warning shots, then aimed at the engine" when it turns out they immediately fired at the people inside the van, or "they looked like Iraqi BMP:s", when the aircraft were way out of their zone and fired on clearly marked, not at all BMP-looking british vehicles.

[SpencerH]

Who knows what the troops saw or didnt see? They've been sleep deprived for at least 2 weeks. Under similar conditins I once hallucinated a mining town from a stand of trees. Another time I saw a large boat on a trailer and the funny part was I convinced the guy in the hole with me that it was there. Fortunately we didnt open fire, but I know of an incident where they did open fire at a steam locomotive coming toward their position (they even heard sounds). Admittedly, these all happened at night.

The journalists are in a war zone where -guess what- people get killed. Its unfortunate when it happens, but so are all the other deaths. Unlike the Iraqis and our troops on the ground, they choose to be there and they know the risks.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

So what's the problem??? As far as war goes this one has seen such light casualties I can't understand how anyone can complain. Even Iraqi troops have not suffered like they would if Iraq where being invaded by the likes of Russia or China (savages). I can't see those countries taking care of 8000 POW's to the extend the US does. And we've all seen how Russia takes a city.

I posted before the war that the US would have casualties of 500 or less. I think the US is up to 120 or something like that - and the fighting (for the most part) is over. Iraq (not military) is what? something like 500 dead. In a country of 24 million... those numbers are pretty freakin good. WAY better than ANY OTHER power could do when taking a country.

Kinda makes me think why stop now??? Iran is right next door and the US has everything more or less in place right now to take a right hand turn and keep on pushing.

How many would have died this year under Saddam?

[Hurricane]

Seems you guys didn't read my posts. The problem is not that FF occurs, but that the US army stubbornly denies any mistakes their troopers make.

[Ming]

Well Hurricane... The reporters are stubbornly denying that any gunfire came from the hotel...

Both sides are sticking to their story... At this point, who is to say what really happened.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

I guess I don't see it like that. The US is right there when they blow up a house by mistake. I think just today or yesterday the US reported 11 people killed in a afgan village when a bomber targeted something by mistake. gezzz... what the heck do you want?!? i'd like to see the russians take a cnn reporter along for the ride the next time they level a city.

What other army in this world is as open as the US???? In terms of news and sharing info.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

Originally posted by Ming
Well Hurricane... The reporters are stubbornly denying that any gunfire came from the hotel...

Both sides are sticking to their story... At this point, who is to say what really happened.

and who you going to believe??? some reported with his head up his butt who probably couldnt tell the difference between a tank round over a car back firing 15 floors below them!

[Hurricane]

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I'm not questioning just this particular incident, but more the overall picture you get. Any particular incident can be explained with different factors (and there has been quite a few explanations in this thread ), but when you sum up all the friendly fire incidents, at least I get a picture of an army with a policy of "since the winners write the history, we couldn't care less about our FUBAR's. If we shoot some unarmed civilian, it's he's fault that he was at the wrong place at the wrong time, not our's. Our soldiers are untouchable".

[Ming]

Hmmm... I see a different picture. I see an army that tried their best to limit civilian casualties... and have been the first to report friendly fire incidents... Mistakes happen in war... but I don't see people that "couldn't care less"

[Bereta_Eder]

It's interesting to say the least that 3 different news agancies bases were hit in one single day....

not to say that the powerful scopes on board any war vehicle can clearly discern a camera from a gun...