What did Saddam do?

[GePap]

I was pointing to the obvious problems with the whole: "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" notion. Like any other truisms, it is wrong many times.

As for the "suffering of Iraqis", yes, they suffer now, will suffer during the war, and wil suffer less afterwards. Since I am not an Iraqi, know any Iraqis personally, the amount of real concern and empathy I can give Iraqis is as low as that I can give any other people with whom I feel few connections beyond a shared humanity, which obviously is still a very fuzzy and non-coherent feeling for 99.999% of humanity.

[yavoon]

well the "truism" has to be used by ppl who are capable of knowing when to use it. it is obviously not random divine truth. but certainly it is a very useful tool.

[GePap]

People do not know whent o use ot because there is no such thing as a time to use it: the reasons why states and political movements ally with each other are based on many reasons. People use the whole "enemy of enemy" crap to make a "link" between Hussein and Al Qaeda, which is a very weak case, since the aims of the two are divergent enough to make common cause difficult. Truism are intelectual lazyness trying to appear like wisdom.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by GePap


Any comparison of Saddam to Hitler, or the current situation to 1941 is shallow at best, wrong usually. In this instance, it was shallow, but meant to point out that "the American People" have no inborn hatred of aggressors, bullies, madmen, or butchers, a trait we share with the rest of humanity.

And if I oppose the government's actions is because I think:

a. They way they got to this point was utterly foolish and has done great harm

b. I disagree with their assesment of the likely otucomes of this action, which will affect hundreads of millions of people.

I'm not comparing Saddam to Hitler, I'm comparing our tendency to say "they're far away and not bothering us, so **** 'em"

[GePap]

That is the common tendency of all people's, and one to be changed with great discretion and forethought, forethought not given in this isntance, I believe.

[Vicomte Gilbert]

Originally posted by Ramo
The American people hate him because the media and government [now] focus on his atrocities and hype a non-existent bond with al-Qaeda and potential WMD's, while ignoring more dangerous threats to the US and worse regimes as far as human rights go.

The government hates him because he was our boy and then defied us.

So it is.

[yavoon]

its not lazyness its practicality. its the world tryin to figure out a best way. there are definitely good times to use it. and I dont even know wtf u mean by "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" being used to link saddam and al queda. thats just silly and makes me think you are either randomnly spouting things out or don't know what you are talking about.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DanS
Che: Do you know which "movement", if any, from which AI draws its support?

By and large they mostly draw their support from liberals. People in the process of radicalizing (such as myself at one time) may pass through AI, and then leave because their level of political activity and analysis only goes so far, and according to the "laws" of the organization, may never be directed at the host country. The reason for this is the protection of members of AI who may not be in free countries. Being a member of AI in some countries (say Chile under Pinochet) was enough to have the government watching you. Being critical of that same government often meant death, disappearance, or imprisonment and torture.

With the exception of the death penalty, AI does not engage in politics, per se, but merely encourages governments to live up to their existing laws and treaty obligations. When someone disappears, they begin an emergency letter writing campaign within 48 hours to get the government to investigate the disappearance and to let them know that the world is watching. Often this is enough to keep people alive. Many former prisoners have told of how their jailers would comment on the letters written on their behalf. AI also tries to gain release for "prisoners of conscience," people who opposed their own government non-violently and were jailed for it, like Ken Saro-Wiwa. Finally, they put pressue on governments not to torture their prisoners.

My break with AI came when I found that they placed both Cuba and Nicaragua in the worst catagory of human rights abusers, along side such countries as Guatemala and South Africa (this was the late 80s, mind you) and placed Israel in the highest catagory of human rights. Both should have been more towards the middle (no death squads in Cuba or Nicaragua, and the later had internationally recognized free elections, while Israel had both death squads and engaged in the torture of Palestinians). The US, which practices the Death Penalty (which AI is campaining against) was also placed in the highest catagory. It was clear to me that AI had a bias towards the West in overlooking their blemishes, while overstating the aspects of some revolutionary states. Also, the fact that they refused to consider Nelson Mandela a prisoner of conscience, because he carried out acts of sabotage in the early 1960s (against power lines) gave me problems.

In the US, many people in AI formed a new group (while still staying in AI) called VISTA (IIRC). This new group concentrated on human rights abuses within the US, such as the death penalty, torture of prisoners, political prisoners, etc. They put out a book, Can't Jail the Spirit which lists political pisoners in the US (but it's damned expensive it seems--I remember paying only about $14 for it in 1990 or so, but it's going for $41 to $65 on Amazon.com).

[GePap]

Originally posted by yavoon
its not lazyness its practicality. its the world tryin to figure out a best way. there are definitely good times to use it. and I dont even know wtf u mean by "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" being used to link saddam and al queda. thats just silly and makes me think you are either randomnly spouting things out or don't know what you are talking about.

Are you an avid watcher of the US media? cause if you are.... you would more then know were this comment came from.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp


It strikes me that giving major support to Shi'ites in Iraq would be just about the best way to deal with Islamic conflict against the US. Watch the Al-Qaidr recruitments evaporate. Couple it with a few harshly-worded comments about Israel and I think you'd be getting somewhere.

EXACTLY.

[Ben Kenobi]

Laz:

Is it right to kill several thousand innocents in order to protect the human rights of millions?

I know that Saddam has committed genocide, as you have defined, but so have others. Is the United States willing to act in all cases?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

nice avatar che. a good symbol for the resistance.

[The Mad Monk]

One at a time, Obiwan, one at a time.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
One at a time, Obiwan, one at a time.

Yeah, right. Just as long as they aren't our allies.

[notyoueither]

Why should the US attack regimes friendly to your administration(s)? Is being stupid required to be good?