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I didn't say Iraq was Afghanistan. I was pointing out that the politically expedient thing to do in Afghanistan was to co-opt the warlords. The politically expedient thing to do in Iraq is co-opt the Sunni elite. We've done the politically expedient thing in Afghanistan, thus we will probably do the politically expedient thing in Iraq. Both are anti-thetical to allowing liberty and democracy.
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"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
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In any way we should also do this to make up for past mistakes.
I'm sure those bastards told the kurd we were going into Iraq in 1991 and told them to rise up.
We lied to them. I do feel bad about that. Thousands died because of it.Comment
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We're not going to let the Kurds keep their freedom. Seeing as how everyone in the region hates the Kurds, that's not going to win us any friends. Also, the loss of Kurds to the Iraqi state would mean it'd be easier for Iran-friendly, maybe Islamist, Shia regime to take power in Iraq. Furthermore, an independent Kurdistan would be invaded by at least Turkey if not Iran and the new Iraqi gov't, and we'd completely lose one of our strongest allies (Turkey). In other words, ain't gonna happen.
We're just lying to the Kurds some more."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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why does everyone hate the Kurds so much? That's what I don't understand.
Surely they don't hate the Kurds as much as they hate the U.S.
In any case that is what peacekeeping forces are for.
And Turkey is a long term ally. But we have essentually lost them for this operation anyways.Comment
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Surely they don't hate the Kurds as much as they hate Israel.
No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.Comment
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I think because they occupy land that the others want and have no intention of giving it up, and their obstinate habit of refusing to vanish when subjugated.why does everyone hate the Kurds so much? That's what I don't understand.Comment
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Argh, too many windows open. I edited out this post.
The regimes in the region tend to be very nationalistic. The Iraqi Ba'athists borrowed a lot from fascist ideology. Turkey has been uber-nationalistic ever since the Young Turk revolution and the Armenian genocide. During the past few decades, it has been participating in a nasty genocide against the Kurds. Its actions against the Kurds have been far worse than Iraq's. Iran isn't that nationalistic as much as it is Islamist, so it's strongly anti-Sunni, and the Kurds happen to be Sunni.why does everyone hate the Kurds so much? That's what I don't understand.
Surely they don't hate the Kurds as much as they hate the U.S.
If we give independence to Kurdistan, the whole strategy in the Middle East would break down. We give Iran leverage by insuring Iraq ends up Shia after the civil war. And we lose Turkey as an ally. And everyone would be really pissed at us in the region.
Not if there's an independent Kurdistan.And Turkey is a long term ally.Last edited by Ramo; March 15, 2003, 05:30."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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It strikes me that giving major support to Shi'ites in Iraq would be just about the best way to deal with Islamic conflict against the US. Watch the Al-Qaidr recruitments evaporate. Couple it with a few harshly-worded comments about Israel and I think you'd be getting somewhere.Originally posted by Ramo
Also, the loss of Kurds to the Iraqi state would mean it'd be easier for Iran-friendly, maybe Islamist, Shia regime to take power in Iraq.The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil FinlandComment
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Because if the replacement regime looks worse, we go in for Round 2.Originally posted by Ramo
Why are you so convinced that the situation will turn out for the better?
What makes you so convinced that inactivity, or your undescribed "smart sanctions" won't just carry on resulting in the annual deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis?The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil FinlandComment
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That's probably true. But it would totally undermine the anti-Iranian policy. And it'd guarantee a nasty civil war in Iraq. Not something I'd expect to happen.It strikes me that giving major support to Shi'ites in Iraq would be just about the best way to deal with Islamic conflict against the US. Watch the Al-Qaidr recruitments evaporate.
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On second thought, I don't know if it would hurt Islamic terrorism against the US all that much. You might finally have the US on the side of popular revolt, but the propaganda value of that is limited. On the other hand, you might throw some of the Iraqi Sunnis into the hands of al-Qaeda et al. Plus, a Shia Iraq would de-stabilize Saudi Arabia, causing an even more extremist regime replacing House Saud.Last edited by Ramo; March 15, 2003, 06:00."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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How is that any different from the present?Originally posted by Ramo
And it'd gurantee a nasty civil war in Iraq.The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil FinlandComment
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I'm not convinced. I think it's worth a shot, and the gov't can't screw this up too badly.What makes you so convinced that inactivity, or your undescribed "smart sanctions" won't just carry on resulting in the annual deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis?
As for a description, the sanctions should be much less stringent and we should deal with Iraqi individuals instead of the state.
We will? The propaganda focus has always been about WMD's (which are irrelevent anyways), not human rights. Human rights conditions provide a greater extra casus belli, it was never that important. But after Saddam is replaced, the US has proven it's point - once you're a *****, you're always a *****, so they'll go home.Because if the replacement regime looks worse, we go in for Round 2.
I doubt the replacement regime would be worse per se, but that that it would be comparable, but the situation the country would be in would be more objectionable than Saddam's current situation, thus the the country will be worse.
The Sunni have all the power in Iraq. The Shia have numbers (and Iranian help). Give more leverage to the Shia, and you even the situation some more. If you give power to the Sunni (as long as they're effective at crushing dissent), you insure that the civil war wouldn't really get started.How is that any different from the present?Last edited by Ramo; March 15, 2003, 05:34."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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Laz, given the strength of your convictions, are you going to take action? I.e. join the armed services and participate in an invasion of Iraq?ACOL owner/administratorComment
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We also serve who pay taxes.No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.Comment
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Paying taxes is a lot easier than putting your life at risk to depose a dictator.ACOL owner/administratorComment
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