Senate Passes Bill Limiting Abortion

[Arrian]

The consent for treating STDs part is ABOMINABLE

I agree.

-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

Ramo:

At first glance, I can't seem to find the text on the web.
It might not be out yet, so you'll have to rely on Reuters.

seems to imply that the exemptions for the mother's health aren't adequate

Are there any medical conditions that require a partial birth abortion as opposed to one earlier? Most complications will be detected early on in the pregnancy, so the mother will have the choice to abort by law.

The problem with the term 'health' comes from the definition of health in Doe v. Bolton, where health can include emotional factors, and even the age of the woman can be justifications for abortion. This definition is too easily abused and confused with reasons more akin to convenience.

[Sava]

Loin: Aborting a fetus isn't murder. If anything, abortion is closer to euthenasia on the morality scale. And the partial-birth thingy is preventing a doctor from saving a mother's life.

And I'll use all the damn ;rolleyes; I WANT!

[Ramo]

Are there any medical conditions that require a partial birth abortion as opposed to one earlier? Most complications will be detected early on in the pregnancy, so the mother will have the choice to abort by law.

Why should it be relevant if the complications are detectable earlier? What if the mother doesn't have financial resources to detect them? What if the mother decides later on in the pregnancy that she doesn't want to risk her health?

[Ben Kenobi]

Here you go, Ramo:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_cong_bills&docid=f:s3is.txt.pdf

I've excerpted parts of the bill most relevant to the topic at hand.


‘‘§ 1531. Partial-birth abortions prohibited
‘‘(a) Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or
foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth
abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined
under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or
both. This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth
abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother
whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical
illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering
physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy
itself.

"(13) There exists substantial record evidence
upon which Congress has reached its conclusion that
a ban on partial-birth abortion is not required to
contain a ‘‘health’’ exception, because the facts indi-
cate that a partial-birth abortion is never necessary
to preserve the health of a woman, poses serious
risks to a woman’s health, and lies outside the
standard of medical care. "

"(A) Partial-birth abortion poses serious
risks to the health of a woman undergoing the
procedure. Those risks include, among other
things: an increase in a woman’s risk of suf-
fering from cervical incompetence, a result of
cervical dilation making it difficult or impos-
sible for a woman to successfully carry a subse-
quent pregnancy to term; an increased risk of
uterine rupture, abruption, amniotic fluid embo-
lus, and trauma to the uterus as a result of
converting the child to a footling breech posi-
tion, a procedure which, according to a leading
obstetrics textbook, ‘‘there are very few, if any,
indications for . . . other than for delivery of
a second twin’’; and a risk of lacerations and
secondary hemorrhaging due to the doctor
blindly forcing a sharp instrument into the base
of the unborn child’s skull while he or she is
lodged in the birth canal, an act which could
result in severe bleeding, brings with it the
threat of shock, and could ultimately result in
maternal death.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Sava
Loin: Aborting a fetus isn't murder. If anything, abortion is closer to euthenasia on the morality scale. And the partial-birth thingy is preventing a doctor from saving a mother's life.

[Sava]

Whether you believe abortion to be right or wrong, I respect your views, even they are contrary to my own. It should be your right and your choice... not the government's.

[Sava]

Great, abortion doctors will be locked up for longer prison sentences than corporate criminals. Save a mother's life... GO TO JAIL... steal 100 billion dollars... play golf with Bush.

[Ben Kenobi]

What if the mother decides later on in the pregnancy that she doesn't want to risk her health?

Ramo:
So we allow mothers to 'opt-out' of pregnancy up to the time of delivery?

What definition of health are you using?

There are very few medical conditions that pose a risk to the mother's life, the most common being ectopic pregnancy. By definition, partial birth abortion cannot be used because the unborn child develops in the mother's fallopian tubes, and would kill the mother when her tubes rupture. This is why an ectopic pregnancy must be detected early on in the pregnancy and reported as soon as possible.

Other than that, it is extremely rare for pregnancy to endanger the life of the mother.

[loinburger]

.0000000000000000000000001/10. Postia ante deletia.

[Ben Kenobi]

Great, abortion doctors will be locked up for longer prison sentences than corporate criminals. Save a mother's life... GO TO JAIL... steal 100 billion dollars... play golf with Bush.

Sava:
So two wrongs make a right?

Loinburger:

[Sava]

Abortion isn't wrong... abortion isn't right. It's a medical decision that involves preventing the birth of a human being. It's not a decision that people make lightly, it's not a decision people make with murderous intent, and it should remain a decision and not made a law. And getting an abortion when the decision has been made, rationally, is not wrong. In a perfect world, there's be no abortions. But the world isn't perfect. And frankly, obiwan, if you want less abortions, creating a law won't prevent abortions. It will only criminalize them. The way to get less abortions is by education, not legislation.

Loinburger, if you want to add to this discussion, feel free. But if you want to spam, go to counterglow or something.

[JohnT]

"Although I think partial-birth abortions are wrong, it's not the governments' place to place a law against them."

Uh, then whose job is it? Given that it was the gov't that declared abortion illegal, then legal (with Roe V. Wade), it seems obvious that it IS the governments place to make laws affecting abortions.

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but if nobody picked up on the ghastly humor of this

Santorum argued that the bill is now constitutional and says it addresses the health issue by declaring that the procedure is never necessary for health reasons

item, then I weep for everybodies reading skills.

[Shi Huangdi]

http://www.priestsforlife.org/partialbirth.html

"In 1992, Dr. Martin Haskell presented his paper on this procedure at a Risk Management Seminar of the National Abortion Federation. He personally claims to have done over 700 himself (Interview with Dr. Martin Haskell, AMA News, 1993), and points out that some 80% are "purely elective." In a personal conversation with Fr. Frank Pavone, Dr. Haskell explained that "elective" does not mean that the woman chooses the procedure because of a medical necessity, but rather chooses it because she wants an abortion. He admitted to Fr. Frank that there does not seem to be any medical reason for this procedure. There are in fact absolutely no obstetrical situations encountered in this country which require a partially delivered human fetus to be destroyed to preserve the life or health of the mother (Dr. Pamela Smith, Senate Hearing Record, p.82: Partial Birth Abortion Ban Medical Testimony). "

The main problem with the bill as provided is that it doesn't give a strict enough penalty for performing a partial birth abortion. The procedure is murder, and should be punished as murder in the first degree, meaning the penalties should be either life in prison or the death penalty.

[JohnT]

Re: Re: Re: Senate Passes Bill Limiting Abortion

Originally posted by Sava

yeah, and kept slavery around

Now the question is: Are you MrFun's DL or is MrFun your DL?