Rugby - Crouch and Hold!

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar

The point is that a penalty try is what it is - a try awarded when the attacking team would, in all probability - which isn't possibly or might - have scored a try but for the infringement. The Waratahs were nowhere near close enough to the line for it to be judged they would, in all probability, have scored the try. Anything could have happened. The Waratahs could have lost the ball as they'd been doing for most of the game.

I understand this. What I do support is the ref taking a very liberal interpretation of "probability". If teams come to know that they're going to give a try away in situations such that the opposition might not have scored then they'll be less likely to do it (which, afterall, is the whole idea). How many times have a team on the "verge" of scoring been fouled when they've had a break (even if not too near the line) only to have a penalty awarded and either put it through the posts or run it (with the defenders having regrouped)?
Soccer, OTOH may go a bit too far in such situations - with a penalty shot giving an almost certain goal (which would generally count for much more than an equivalent rugby try) so it may not be such a good example.

A rugby team isn't handicapped playing one man down? Tell that to the teams who concede tries when they're one man down.

A rugby team of 14 players going against another team of 15 is far less handicapped though than a soccer team of 9 going against one with 10. The difference is further magnified by the way the 2 games play out. Rugby, with opposing offensive and defensive lines (optimally anyway) uses far less of the field at any one time than does soccer, hence a tighter player density reduces the impact of losing a single player.

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
I understand this. What I do support is the ref taking a very liberal interpretation of "probability". If teams come to know that they're going to give a try away in situations such that the opposition might not have scored then they'll be less likely to do it (which, afterall, is the whole idea). How many times have a team on the "verge" of scoring been fouled when they've had a break (even if not too near the line) only to have a penalty awarded and either put it through the posts or run it (with the defenders having regrouped)?

I much preferred you when you had the cheap only-on-Fridays ISP.

So how then is the penalty try redefined? As punishment for a defending team deliberately stopping an attacking team? That punishment already exsists in the form of a card of either colour for a professional foul. Where exactly on the field, under your system, does the penalty try become - or cease to be - an option for the referee? What does "on the verge" of scoring mean? The law, as it stands, is as clear as it's possible to be - "in all probability" means a try would have been scored except for the interference. We already have enough confusion in our rugby laws without creating more, IMHO.

Soccer, OTOH may go a bit too far in such situations - with a penalty shot giving an almost certain goal (which would generally count for much more than an equivalent rugby try) so it may not be such a good example.

Soccer and rugby can't be compared because they're entirely different games with, most importantly, massively different scoring systems. The fewer the goals scored (as in soccer), the greater the possibility of one errant act - or errant ref's decision - impacting on the result.

A rugby team of 14 players going against another team of 15 is far less handicapped though than a soccer team of 9 going against one with 10. The difference is further magnified by the way the 2 games play out. Rugby, with opposing offensive and defensive lines (optimally anyway) uses far less of the field at any one time than does soccer, hence a tighter player density reduces the impact of losing a single player.

Ironically, I was watching the round-up of the weekend's S12 matches last night. There were players sent off in several games. In each case, the opposition scored at least one try while the player was off the field. Q.E.D.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar

I much preferred you when you had the cheap only-on-Fridays ISP.

I still have said internet connection.
My new calender though seems to have a few more Fridays in each week.

So how then is the penalty try redefined? As punishment for a defending team deliberately stopping an attacking team? That punishment already exsists in the form of a card of either colour for a professional foul. Where exactly on the field, under your system, does the penalty try become - or cease to be - an option for the referee? What does "on the verge" of scoring mean? The law, as it stands, is as clear as it's possible to be - "in all probability" means a try would have been scored except for the interference. We already have enough confusion in our rugby laws without creating more, IMHO.

Point taken. I think my only real wish is to see it implemented more often. Perhaps if the wording were changed to allow for a "better-than-even" probability, in the opinion of the ref, or somesuch? Now I'm probably starting to split too many hairs though ...

[Bearcat]

I vote YEA to retire to a different thread

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
I still have said internet connection.
My new calender though seems to have a few more Fridays in each week.

If it had a few more weekends in it, I'd be interested.

Point taken. I think my only real wish is to see it implemented more often. Perhaps if the wording were changed to allow for a "better-than-even" probability, in the opinion of the ref, or somesuch? Now I'm probably starting to split too many hairs though ...

The point, I suspect, is that too many refs are still letting too many players get away with too many obviously professional fouls. Penalty and a warning, then a card, IMHO.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Bearcat
I vote YEA to retire to a different thread

I'd like to be a fly on the wall in Havak's office when he fires up the computer, opens up the OT forum, hunts for the rugby thread, desperate to gloat ... and the thread isn't there. Well, it is, but it's called Growing Geraniums, and he wouldn't bother looking in such a thread because he gets enough of that, at Mrs Havak's behest, at home on the weekends.

Let me rephrase that. I'd like to be a fly on Havak's breakfast Pork Pie in his office when he fires up the, et cetera, and so on.

At this point, I think I might get back to work.

[Bearcat]

Is there hope for the Springboks yet? At least their Sports Ministry is considering dropping quotas.

http://www.planet-rugby.com/LATEST_NEWS/story_26828.shtml

[Havak]

Morning Gentlemen.

What a weekend I had. I do love that country at the best of times – and this was the best of times.

Is it worth going into too much detail in my first post back – not really. The myth of a superb Irish 15 was shown to be exactly that. Their back line commands huge respect but the forwards failed to match the challenge and didn’t get them enough ball.

And I hate to say it but the Captain made a huge difference – when they did put us under pressure the defence was rock solid and there was no mid game mini-panic.

You may not all be aware that it was 13-6 to England entering the 59 minute but in that last quarter as Ireland both tired and had to chase the game we cut them apart. One has to be very satisfied all round.

I agree with LDiCesare by the way – France are the greater threat for RWC – although I would point out we didn’t play well against them either so to use their game against us as the prime indicator for RWC would be a little false. Also Wales never threatened our try line twice in the first five minutes, they never breached it at all – and we played them in Wales.

It’s time to put aside the problem with national self esteem I think Finbar. We can beat anyone anywhere anytime. Not ALL the time of course. Will we win RWC? I doubt it – but there are no teams in the tournament who can treat us lightly now.

The Pork Pie did not survive the airport lounge (you are not technically allowed to take such foodstuffs into Ireland).

And where is this Growing Geraniums thread?

By the way - England are the only away side ever to have won a Grand Slam decider - that is a game where either team could win the grand slam by winning the game.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Morning Gentlemen.

He brought back some Irish charm with him.

It?s time to put aside the problem with national self esteem I think Finbar.

The stuff I've already deleted from the post in this reply would suggest otherwise. But I left the next bit in just to prove my point -

Will we win RWC? I doubt it ? but there are no teams in the tournament who can treat us lightly now.

The Pork Pie did not survive the airport lounge (you are not technically allowed to take such foodstuffs into Ireland).

If it didn't survive the airport lounge, you did take it into Ireland. Presumably you also left it behind in Ireland.

And where is this Growing Geraniums thread?

You're in it.

By the way - England are the only away side ever to have won a Grand Slam decider - that is a game where either team could win the grand slam by winning the game.

See above re lack of self esteem.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Bearcat
Is there hope for the Springboks yet? At least their Sports Ministry is considering dropping quotas.
http://www.planet-rugby.com/LATEST_N...ry_26828.shtml

The quota - which also applied (and, I think, still applies) to their national cricket team - was yet another of those well-intentioned but ultimately self-defeating ideas. As to the newfound onfield discipline - we shall see, we shall see. As I did try to point out to Havak recently, Corne Krige has a pretty unblemished record in S12 this season, playing hard (but fair) and very inspiring rugby. I hope for the Boks' sakes that they do clean up their disciplinary act, because they have some talent in the squad.

[Havak]

He brought back some Irish charm with him.

To be sure, to be sure.

But I left the next bit in just to prove my point

Ah let me clarify. We are the best team in the world at the moment (in my opinion). The world cup thing is more practical – were it in the NH ourselves and France would have no real worries – but it’s in Australia and the simple fact is I doubt the ability of any NH team to win it there – however good we are.

My thoughts on the ‘welcoming and friendly’ Australian sporting venue hosts are well known and much lamented. And the simple fact is that the teams used to playing on those surfaces, with those balls and those (even more lamented) SH referees hold all the aces. Lets face it on form NZ, England and France – even Ireland – should beat Australia. I just don’t think they will. They won’t be allowed to. Go you good men go?

If it didn't survive the airport lounge, you did take it into Ireland.

Departure lounge.

See above re lack of self esteem.

Hardly! One could even say I was crowing about the way we have done something no other team ever has.
France slaughtered Ireland in Paris last year. We took that show on the road.

England – Grand Slam Champions 2003



Kaplan was awful btw - but Jutge defied belief. He stopped play after a good drop goal by Wilko and made Kaplan disallow it because a foot apparently went into touch in the build up play. Video later showed this to be wrong.

Play restarted with an Irish scrum. From a touch? Help me out there Finbar?

[Havak]

By the way I also caught the A fixture at Donnybrook on Friday night that Ireland won with the last kick of the game - all that false hope they raised - shame.

Both games also further convinced me that the SH really misses out on what rugby should be like live. To hear the grounds in full flow with Ireland's Call, Sweet Chariots and especially the Fields of Athenry is unbelivably moving.

Some little guy with a banjo singing Waltzing Matilda before kick off just doesn't cut it Finbar - trust me.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Lets face it on form NZ, England and France ? even Ireland ? should beat Australia. I just don?t think they will. They won?t be allowed to. Go you good men go?

I know it's a long way to the WRC, but our S12 teams are all playing like busted a*seholes. It's genuinely very worrying.

Kaplan was awful btw - but Jutge defied belief. He stopped play after a good drop goal by Wilko and made Kaplan disallow it because a foot apparently went into touch in the build up play. Video later showed this to be wrong.

Play restarted with an Irish scrum. From a touch? Help me out there Finbar?

You mean it restarted from an Irish scrum because the England player went into touch? How bizarre. An Irish throw, I'd've thought. I can't imagine how it could have been a scrum.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Both games also further convinced me that the SH really misses out on what rugby should be like live. To hear the grounds in full flow with Ireland's Call, Sweet Chariots and especially the Fields of Athenry is unbelivably moving.

Some little guy with a banjo singing Waltzing Matilda before kick off just doesn't cut it Finbar - trust me.

I couldn't agree more. I was only telling Tamerlin in our Civ 2 MP game tonight - in which, BTW, he's playing as the Babs and gleefully wiping out the French civ, which I'm sure has some deep psychological import that I won't go into here - that Australians are too self-conscious to sing in the way you lot do.

[Tamerlin]

Congratulations to England, the english players deserve this Grad Slam...

As I told it to Finbar, I have recorded Ireland - England and listened again this afternoon the crowd singing "Ireland's Call", impressive to the point it gave me thrills...