Appeals court: Pledge of Allegiance still unconstitutional

[Imran Siddiqui]

What can happen if they don't take the pledge? The entire act is voluntary. If a kid doesn't want to do it, he doesn't have to.

And of course, the mere act of reciting a pledge will turn a kid into a fundamentalist Christian .

[Jon Shafer]

I agree completely with Berzerker.

I forget when and where, but I read a thread at a forum a few months ago about a girl who was severely abused by classmates, teachers, parents, etc. because she refused to recite the pledge. I forget the details but it was a horribly traumatic situation which was brought on directly by her refusal to profess to the community's religious beliefs. Somewhere in Texas. I should go look for that thread for all those of you who think this is just some pie-in-the-sky claim because we're all evil liberals...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Damn, she was teased for being different? Imagine that? Jews are teased horribly, should we stop people from Stars of David because of this horrible teasing? Please .

You think kids in Texas are going to stop persecuting an atheist because 'under God' was removed form the pledge?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Trip
I forget when and where, but I read a thread at a forum a few months ago about a girl who was severely abused by classmates, teachers, parents, etc. because she refused to recite the pledge. I forget the details...

That's very .

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Damn, she was teased for being different? Imagine that? Jews are teased horribly, should we stop people from Stars of David because of this horrible teasing? Please .

You think kids in Texas are going to stop persecuting an atheist because 'under God' was removed form the pledge?

They wouldn't know that she was an atheist.

It was much more than teasing... it was severe abuse from everyone she knew. I'm still looking for the thread...

[devilmunchkin]

**** that. that's the story of my life..i was emotionally abused by my own fundy family. and it's unfair to assume that atheists can't be patriotic too...being patriotic, which is what is happening when you recite the pledge, shouldn't have anything to do with theism and it's ideas. if fundies want that lifestyle, let them do it on their own time instead of trying to push it off on everyone else in their missionary and intrusive ways.

[Imran Siddiqui]

They wouldn't know that she was an atheist.

Because kids can easily know that some kid's father was cheating on his wife?

Parents tend to tell kids things, or they find out. Chances are the 2nd grader is going to be just like his parents in terms of beliefs.

[Berzerker]

What can happen if they don't take the pledge?

They can get beat up or ridiculed. Ever hear what used to happen to "witches" and other "pagans"?

The entire act is voluntary. If a kid doesn't want to do it, he doesn't have to.

And if he doesn't, his classmates may show him what they think of evil atheists. So the kid is put in the position of lying about what they believe or risk abuse from other students, and possible discrimination by the teacher.

And of course, the mere act of reciting a pledge will turn a kid into a fundamentalist Christian .

Beside the point, the government should not be asking children to stand up and affirm religious beliefs they don't have. It isn't the government's business, and Christians would scream bloody murder if teachers were asking their children to stand up and affirm a belief in Satan.

[Berzerker]

Imran -

Damn, she was teased for being different? Imagine that? Jews are teased horribly, should we stop people from Stars of David because of this horrible teasing? Please .

If a Jew wants to wear the star of David, that's their choice, but many Jews would not do that if the consequence was persecution. But the teacher shouldn't be telling Jews to wear the star of David - that is analogous to telling children to stand and recite the pledge.

You think kids in Texas are going to stop persecuting an atheist because 'under God' was removed form the pledge?

Does that mean you are now admitting persecution happens? Then you've just agreed the pledge is not voluntary. To answer your question, no, but this issue is about the teacher creating the catalyst for the persecution. The teacher is essentially telling children to come out of the closet, so to speak. Stand up and lie about your beliefs or be exposed as a non-believer and face persecution. That's one helluva position to put a small child. Yeah, it's voluntary.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Does that mean you are now admitting persecution happens? Then you've just agreed the pledge is not voluntary. To answer your question, no, but this issue is about the teacher creating the catalyst for the persecution. The teacher is essentially telling children to come out of the closet, so to speak. Stand up and lie about your beliefs or be exposed as a non-believer and face persecution. That's one helluva position to put a small child. Yeah, it's voluntary.

Touche.

[Berzerker]

if fundies want that lifestyle, let them do it on their own time instead of trying to push it off on everyone else in their missionary and intrusive ways.

Oh Munchkin, didn't you know that Fundies think religious freedom means they get to use our money to push their religion on our children?

[devilmunchkin]

berserker: yes...but that doesn't mean i like it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Does that mean you are now admitting persecution happens? Then you've just agreed the pledge is not voluntary.

Persecution happens because of relgion, being a certain religion isn't voluntary now!

And as said many times by others in this thread, people are teased MUCH more for being a different religion than for not standing up and saying the pledge.

Where I was at school, it was 'cool' to get out of saying the pledge.

If a Jew wants to wear the star of David, that's their choice, but many Jews would not do that if the consequence was persecution.

How many Jews do you know?

And so you say that wearing the Star of David is a Jew's choice, you ready to admit that saying the pledge is the kid's choice now?

But the teacher shouldn't be telling Jews to wear the star of David - that is analogous to telling children to stand and recite the pledge.

The proper analogy is the teacher giving Jews the CHOICE to wear the Star of David. After all, you did say it was a choice.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Velociryx
"god" is a rather generic term, and when speaking, you can't hear the capitol letter, so what's the big deal? Some peole have too much time on their hands, and clearly need to get over themselves....

Com'on Vel, I expect better from you. This is just a silly little game you are playing - it fools no one.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I don't see what the big deal is. Just restore the Pledge to its original form, the one that was around before the McCarthyites decided to change it. That would be "One Nation, Indivisible..." That way, there will be one less bit of divisiveness. And it reverts to the Pledge as it was designed.

I agree, let's restore the pledge to how it was originally written.