Appeals court: Pledge of Allegiance still unconstitutional

[Spiffor]

I think it is outrageous to force children to tell the word "God", and to attach themselves to God.
The State acknowledges the existence of God, which means the State is hostile to atheists. As simple as that.

There is no extremism in refusing the word "God" in a pledge of allegiance. Religious propaganda may belong to other places, but should be completely expelled from schools.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I think it is outrageous to force children to tell the word "God", and to attach themselves to God.

Um... no one is being forced to say God.

[Sava]

There's nothing wrong with officials saying stuff like that. Just do it in your own free time. My tax dollars shouldn't be going to the furtherment of other people's religious beliefs. Government shouldn't meddle in religion, religion shouldn't meddle in government. Vel... God only applies to monotheistic religions. Some people want to spread and preach their religion and do it with my tax dollars. They want to force my children to believe in their concept of a deity, and that's wrong.

I just heard a bunch of dumbass conservatives ranting about how children are getting teased because their parents are going to Iraq. Well what about the children who will get teased because they don't believe in God, or because their parents don't believe in God? Huh? It's just more proof that the supporters of "Under God" are a bunch of f*cking hypocrits.

[Velociryx]

Are schools not the places where you gain exposure to different ideas?

Ideas that maybe you don't agree with, but are important in the world nonetheless.

Is not exposure to ideas and allowing people to draw their own conclusions about them part of....freedom.

If you don't wanna say the pledge....don't say it!

But don't tell the kid next to you that he can't say it either....should be his....*choice* to make....not yours, no?....

-=Vel=-

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I think it is outrageous to force children to tell the word "God", and to attach themselves to God.

Um... no one is being forced to say God.

I thought children were forced to say the pledge of allegiance, with the very words "under god" in it.

[Ramo]

"Under God" is unconstitutional, but irrelevent. I find the whole idea of having school children recite loyalty oaths rather disturbing, however.

[Velociryx]

In the first place, given all the other problems we have to work on, I would be sorely surprised if this ranked in the top one thousand or so.

People do lots of stuff you don't like with your tax dollars....so?

I'm not going to argue about it one way or another because frankly, it's a stupid debate, and not worth the effort one way or another.

Perhaps when we have world peace, no crime, no hunger, no poverty, and no drug problem, we can address the issue then, but till then, in the context of the sheer size and magnitude of our OTHER problems, it seems rather a waste of breath to me.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Yeah, in some schools Spiffor, but again, you gott remember that it's 7:30 in the morning and most of these teachers haven't had their first cup of coffee yet. They're sitting there, bleary-eyed at their desk, and frankly don't give a rat's a$$ who says what. The whole class could mouth the words while listening to the latest from MegaDeath for all they care.

-=Vel=-

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ramo
"Under God" is unconstitutional, but irrelevent. I find the whole idea of having school children recite loyalty oaths rather disturbing, however.

And according to Vel, religious freedom isn't all that important because the very people that are taking away our freedoms are creating bigger problems around the world and in our own country.

[Arrian]

I don't recall being "forced" to say the Pledge. I stopped saying it as I got older because it annoyed me (both the concept of pledging allegiance to my country every morning like an automaton and the "God" reference). Nobody hassled me.

-Arrian

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Are schools not the places where you gain exposure to different ideas?

Ideas that maybe you don't agree with, but are important in the world nonetheless.

Is not exposure to ideas and allowing people to draw their own conclusions about them part of....freedom.

If you don't wanna say the pledge....don't say it!

But don't tell the kid next to you that he can't say it either....should be his....*choice* to make....not yours, no?....

In elementary school, I used to tell whatever the teacher asked me to tell, didn't you ? The teacher's viewpoint was overly dominant, I hardly call this "different ideas" ; I call this "forcing ideas".

"Different ideas" come from sources you equate with. A child talking about religion with another child is confronted to different ideas. A child listening to his teacher is listening to the "knowledge" (remember, teachers are here to transmit the truth kids don't know yet, like "1+1=2" )

The government should not endorse religious dogma in the official education. It hurts the right to be an atheist. It ridicules atheistic beliefs.
This religious pledge is as shocking as, say, a pledge featuring "...and god sucks". The very same principle.


EDIT : IDEA ! What about threadjacking and discussing the merits of a pledge without "under god", but with "and god sucks" at the end ?

[Velociryx]

Same here Arrian....nobody stood there with a gun to my head...sheesh guys...why not train some of that enthusiasm onto REAL problems....

-=Vel=-

[Imran Siddiqui]

I thought children were forced to say the pledge of allegiance, with the very words "under god" in it.

Like I said, no one is forced to say anything.

[DinoDoc]

Poly's search feature sucks! Why can't I find the first thread on this?

[Berzerker]

Oerdin -

Freedom of religion has never meant that absolutely all religious expressions should be removed from the lexicon.

This isn't about removing religious phrases from the lexicon, it's about whether or not teachers and public schools should be "requesting" students to stand and take a pledge of allegiance to all that is in the pledge - including a deity. You know damn well the fuss people would be making if a teacher asked children to stand and affirm a belief in Satan.

The founding fathers even used phrases like "Freedom to worship God as they please" and refered to God frequently in official documents. They realized that those phrases did not set up an official state Church and so were perfectly legal.

And yet they also provided an alternative oath of office for people who got elected but did not want to, or could not, swear on the Bible and in the name of God since oath taking was condemned by Jesus...HMMMMMM...It's one thing for you to say you believe in God, it's another for you to ask my child to stand up in a public school room in front of other kids and pledge allegiance to a flag and all that it supposedly stands for.

The modern socialist attempts to purge the word God is an extreamist view point and like all extreamist view points it should be moderated.

Not being a socialist, I cannot speak to their motives, but as someone who believes in freedom, including religious freedom, don't be subjecting other people's children to the coercion of peer pressure inherent in pledge taking by public school children. Your religious freedom doesn't give you the right to indoctrinate someone else's child into your religion. Doesn't it strike you just a bit peculiar that Muslim theocracies pull this kind of crap with children. Yes, little Abdul, time to stand with your classmates and profess a belief in Allah.