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**DinoDoc** · February 28, 2003, 18:24

Incidentaly when are we going to get around to banning The Star Spangled Banner?

**Velociryx** · February 28, 2003, 18:28

Hmmm....good point....and the "Stars and Stripes forever" is probably offensive to those who do not believe in any sort of eternity.

I'm thinking we should get a cadre of lawyers to look into that....

-=Vel=-

**Berzerker** · February 28, 2003, 18:29

It doesn't matter if the teacher is "forcing" children to take the pledge, just the knowledge that a teacher MAY treat a child differently based on whether or not they take the pledge and the knowledge that not taking the pledge MAY subject them to ridicule, if not outright hostility from the other children constitutes coercion.

**Velociryx** · February 28, 2003, 18:31

And when I step outside today, I MAY get struck by lighting....whatchagonna do....sue the stormcloud?

-=Vel=-

**Berzerker** · February 28, 2003, 18:32

Are children being coerced into singing the Star Spangled Banner? Using the word "forever" in a song is not the same as affirming a belief in a deity.

**Stuie** · February 28, 2003, 18:34

Incidentaly when are we going to get around to banning The Star Spangled Banner?

Why? Because it's the same tune as GOD Save the Queen? Oh, no... that's My Country 'Tis of Thee.

There is no justifiable reason to refer to god(s) in any government document. The power to govern comes from the PEOPLE, it is not ordained by gods.

@Berzerker:

Well put. I accept your right to believe in whatever (even if I think it misguided), I DO NOT accept subjecting children to oaths professed to "God" in public school.

Edit: Yikes, several posts intervened...

**Imran Siddiqui** · February 28, 2003, 18:35

just the knowledge that a teacher MAY treat a child differently based on whether or not they take the pledge and the knowledge that not taking the pledge MAY subject them to ridicule, if not outright hostility from the other children constitutes coercion.

Does this mean we should segregate kids again? After all, being black MAY make a teacher treat you differently and MAY (and probably will) subject you to racial stupidity and ridicule.

**Berzerker** · February 28, 2003, 18:38

What's utterly amazing is that proponents of the pledge are claiming the religious freedom to coerce other people's children into affirming a religious belief and that not being allowed to use this coercion on children violates their religious freedom. Gee, does that mean vestal virgins who refuse to jump into a volcano are violating our religious freedom if we want them to jump?

Imran -

Does this mean we should segregate kids again? After all, being black MAY make a teacher treat you differently and MAY (and probably will) subject you to racial stupidity and ridicule.

Blacks have the same rights as the rest of us, it's called equal protection. The fact we can't prevent a teacher from seeing a child's skin color is not a reason to coerce children into affirming religious beliefs since not doing so may trigger discrimination from the teacher. Strange you would use potential racial discrimination to justify potential religious discrimination. If a teacher did that, fire the teacher, don't increase the potential for discrimination...

**DinoDoc** · February 28, 2003, 18:39

Originally posted by Berzerker
Are children being coerced into singing the Star Spangled Banner?

If they participate in sports, they might

be coerced into doing so. It's the God part of the song that might arouse eyebrows though.

PS Does anyone know where the first thread on this topic is? I distinctly remember linking to a page that covered the relevent case law in it.

**Spiffor** · February 28, 2003, 18:40

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Incidentaly when are we going to get around to banning The Star Spangled Banner?

DD :
actually, I think it is the role of School to build a common sense of community in the nation. So, even though I find a daily pledge of allegiance disturbing (to say the least), I don't think it is incompatible with the role of the school.
There is no official religion in the US, but there is an "official Nation" in the Us : the US, with its flag, its anthem, its map, its short history and so on.
Very different business to instill a national sense to a child with instilling a religious sense. Unless, of course, religion and state are intertwined. In the US, they are not.

**Dauphin** · February 28, 2003, 18:40

What about foreign children in US schools, are they 'forced' to sing and pledge? Is it fair to do so?

I can't remember what I did when I was at school, although I still remember the pledge off by heart.

**Velociryx** · February 28, 2003, 18:41

And as has been pointed out...I WENT to public schools, and nobody forced or coerced me to do it. You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I wasn't treated ANY differently for not sayin' the pledge. No biggie.

Let's see....in order to protect our children, we should probably just simply avoid language of any kind in public schools, or wrap everything in a thick coating of PC speak, so no one's tender sensibilities are offended.

"Class...today, we're going to discuss....the evolution of the zebra, and talk about what events may have transpired on the African plains to give him his distinctive stripes....now, this is not to say that any creationists that might be out there in the class are wrong.....merely to provide an alternate opinion....and should we have any class members of the Kambangbo tribe among us (who believe, incidentally, that the zebra is a holy animal, and that the stripes are living symbols of the good and evil in us all), this is not to say that your ideas are wrong either....and if there are any people who don't believe that zebras exist.....and if there are....

**yawn**

How 'bout just getting on with the lesson....lol

-=Vel=-

**Boris Godunov** · February 28, 2003, 18:42

I don't see what the big deal is. Just restore the Pledge to its original form, the one that was around before the McCarthyites decided to change it. That would be "One Nation, Indivisible..." That way, there will be one less bit of divisiveness. And it reverts to the Pledge as it was designed.

**Imran Siddiqui** · February 28, 2003, 18:49

If a teacher did that, fire the teacher

EXACTLY! If a teacher discriminates fire the teacher, don't get rid of a voluntary pledge.

Boris: Because once a big deal is made about something, people tend to retrench.

**Berzerker** · February 28, 2003, 18:52

Dinodoc -

If they participate in sports, they might be coerced into doing so. It's the God part of the song that might arouse eyebrows though.

Huh? I played sports and we never had to sing before an event.

Sports are an extra-curricular activity, you don't have to play.

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