Appeals court: Pledge of Allegiance still unconstitutional

[Imran Siddiqui]

That seems like kind of a strange thing to say, no? Just because you don't have a problem with something, he's not entitled to?

I'm saying I don't understand his reasoning.

freedom of religion IS freedom from religion.

Bull! They are different concepts. Freedom of religion means you are able to worship in whichever way you wish, while freedom from religion means you are insulated from other peoples' religions. Not having freedom from doesn't prevent freedom to.

[Berzerker]

Jack - the quote in your sig loses it's impact without the preceding context of Imran claiming opponents of the pledge are violating the religious freedom of those coercing other people's children into affirming a religious belief IMO.

Imran -

Actually it did. Without societal creations your parents likely would not have met.

I feel like I'm debating Hillary. The village didn't have sex to bring Johnny into the world, and society didn't raise Johnny.

Have you spoken to nature?

Do I need to? Why can't you observe nature and see the parent-child relationship?

Why does nature assign it to the parents rather than to the herd? Because you say so?

Because nature says so, I didn't create nature, but I can see it in action.

No it isn't. Why can't someone just walk on land and take fruit? Because we like property. He is coerced to submit to the property interest and work for food.

You accused employers of coercing employees because they need to work to eat. NATURE designed you to eat to survive, not your employer. Place "blame" where it belongs and stop trying to argue in circles.

Both, duh.

You need to look up the words "coercion" and "voluntary" in the dictionary if you think handing lunch money over to a bully is a voluntary act.

Actually true free will means exactly that.

No it doesn't, the victim's free will has been taken away. How can you take away someone's free will and claim they still have free will? Would you also argue that murder - a constraint - is an act of freedom even though freedom requires the absence of constraints?

When does persecution mean killing?

It can, what does that have to do with me refuting your argument?

You can be persecuted without death, and seeing that saying the pledge isn't done at the end of a sword, it is a invalid comparision.

When did I say persecution required death? And why are you trying to link that to the pledge? You said Jews didn't try to hide their religion from persecutors and I refuted your argument, period.

[Berzerker]

Imran -

Bull! They are different concepts. Freedom of religion means you are able to worship in whichever way you wish, while freedom from religion means you are insulated from other peoples' religions. Not having freedom from doesn't prevent freedom to.

Freedom from religion means freedom from others imposing their religions upon you, not an insulation from seeing or hearing religious expressions.

[cinch]

Bull! They are different concepts. Freedom of religion means you are able to worship in whichever way you wish, while freedom from religion means you are insulated from other peoples' religions. Not having freedom from doesn't prevent freedom to.

Freedom from religion, at least in the way I interpet it, means that you are free from having religion (of any kind, or even just in general) imposed on you. It's the same as freedom of religion.

A Muslim cannot force his beliefs on a Christian.

A Muslim cannot force his beliefs on an atheist.

What is the difference?

It seems as though atheism as a "belief" (or lack of) is being treated as somehow less valid as Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, Judaism, whatever... Why? What is the justification for this?

If I believe in nothing, am I a lesser man than if I believe in magical pig creatures flying out of the top of Mt. McKinley?

[Elden]

Beaureucratic

Stupid American courts already try to prevent Catholics from praying - now this. The U.S.A. more repressive by the minute.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Berzerker:

Jack - the quote in your sig loses it's impact without the preceding context of Imran claiming opponents of the pledge are violating the religious freedom of those coercing other people's children into affirming a religious belief IMO.

True, but I was trying to condense it to a snappy punchline. However, if you insist...

Imran:

In every other Constitutional context, "freedom" means freedom from oppression or persecution, not freedom from exposure. Even the DoI doesn't guarantee freedom from exposure to the British: nobody would use it to round up British tourists or impound visiting British ships or aircraft bearing the Union Jack.

Furthermore, many immigrants were fleeing religious persecution. To them, freedom FROM religion would have meant freedom from the Inquisition, and the bloody struggles between Catholics and Protestants.

Elden:

Stupid American courts already try to prevent Catholics from praying - now this. The U.S.A. more repressive by the minute.

Since when have American courts sought to prevent Catholics from praying? Sounds like a Christian persecution complex there.

The courts have (rightly) sought to prevent schoolteachers imposing a requirement to pray on NON-Christians. The protests about this from some Christians is just another example of their imagined freedom to curtail the freedom of others.

[Berzerker]

Much better Jack, thx, although there isn't much I could do to insist.

Elden -

Stupid American courts already try to prevent Catholics from praying - now this. The U.S.A. more repressive by the minute.

Do you see a difference between a Catholic praying and a Catholic coercing non-Catholic children into praying or affirming religious beliefs they or their parents reject? If not, re-assess whom you're calling stupid.

[MRT144]

whats the real harm in removing it though?

[Elden]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Much better Jack, thx, although there isn't much I could do to insist.

Elden -

Do you see a difference between a Catholic praying and a Catholic coercing non-Catholic children into praying or affirming religious beliefs they or their parents reject? If not, re-assess whom you're calling stupid.

Two things -

First: I said the american COURTS were stupid, not all Americans.

Second - They should make it optional rather than have it compulsory, say it if you want or pause a few seconds so those who want to say it can.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Elden, I still don't see what you imagine the problem is.

If Catholic students want to utter a prayer before going into lessons, nobody is stopping them from doing so.

However, Christian propagandists are certainly giving that impression. There is a "pray-in" campaign among Christian students, who are fighting the imaginary "ban" by "daring" to drop to their knees and pray in the corridors etc.

Even this activity has already been used to harass at least one atheist student: a gang of Christians dropped to their knees and prayed in front of his locker, so that he couldn't reach it. The desire to oppress and persecute in the name of religion is strongly ingrained.

[Elden]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
Since when have American courts sought to prevent Catholics from praying? Sounds like a Christian persecution complex there.

I'm refering to prayer in schools, not everywhere - don't twist my words!

[Elden]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
Even this activity has already been used to harass at least one atheist student: a gang of Christians dropped to their knees and prayed in front of his locker, so that he couldn't reach it. The desire to oppress and persecute in the name of religion is strongly ingrained.

So because of what a few people do you want to ban prayer ???

Also you act as thougth all Christians are like that, they aren't - I'm a Catholic and one of my best friends is an atheist (or agnostic - I forget)

[Jack the Bodiless]

Originally posted by Elden

So because of what a few people do you want to ban prayer ???

...Huh? I don't!

If I had been the atheist in this situation, I'd have walked away. After carefully memorizing who the perpetrators were.

Then, later, I'd glue their locker doors shut.

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
America is sliding towards fascism. But that's "not important", as long as the trains run on time...

I think I'm gonna make a politics PhD about this

[Ned]

I mentioned this the last time this issue came up several months ago, but the Supreme Court authority on this issue supports the Ninth Circuit opinion.

The Supreme's either will have to artfullly distinguish their own past opinons or overrule them to uphold the pledge. If they instead strike it down, I forsee a constitutional amendment.