Was Stalin really that evil?

[Ted Striker]

Yeah but usually we descibe those tragic events with REMORSE, we don't celebrate our bad guys with crap like, "oh, Stalin wasn't really that bad."

Though, Andrew Jackson for instance was a real ****er that needs his statue torn down in front of the Capitol Building.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Propaganda
I find it hilarious that Americans and Euros find the audacity to wave numbers and talk about "bad guys," while they live in countries whose "righteous leaders" over the centuries have murdered hundreds of millions in the name of capital.

Some truth in this but the only comparable figures I can think of in terms of evil deeds and pure body count are Hitler and Napoleon.

Of the 3, I would rate Hitler by far the worst/most evil, Stalin second and Napoleon third.

[Ted Striker]

D1ckhead115 would have to be 4th though Horse.

[Propaganda]

EDIT: Post below.

[Propaganda]

"Hundreds of millions" maybe be exagerrated, but that's beside the point.

You see, we now live in a society where information such as this is available to us, where in previous ages, none of this was available. We now have the benefit of researching and finding truth on various subjects in the not-so-distant past(information I kindly provided here, BTW; information from unbiased sources, sources with no socialist outlook for the world, many of whom come from capitalist countries). Thus, we no longer have to rely on a few sources from the outside(some of whom have no real history in the subject; information they bill as "credible," but in reality fraudulent, used to make a profit), we can go straight to the source.

What I'm doing here is spreading this information. It could be wrong, but that's why I welcome other sources, provided that I can't challenge them in any way.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
But you should be more understanding of people like serb and vagabond who have to live in russia today.

Of course I am understanding!

I am filled with sorrow at the missed opportunities and despair that Russia has had for 100 years.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Propaganda
What I'm doing here is spreading this information. It could be wrong, but that's why I welcome other sources, provided that I can't challenge them in any way.

Har, har, har.

Is that why you fall back on labeling for anything you do not have a ready answer for? If someone points out that there are extensive eyewitness records of the famine, you call the witnesses fascists.

Case in point.

Originally posted by Propaganda
"Numerous?" I'd like to hear about this. The fact is, there are only a few at the forefront of this; their backgrounds completely suspect, who are profiting from this. "Ex-nationals?" Are you admitting they were fascists/nationalists at one point or another in their lives?

Now, whether you like it or not, a great many survivors of the famine made it to the West. A fair number of them told their stories. You can wail on about Conquest til you turn blue, you will not extinguish the knowledge that Stalin was one of the most brutal, murderous, and yes evil, humans to ever live.

[Alexander's Horse]

There will always be those in Russia who will defend Stalin in spite of all his evil crimes.

The reason is there is a strong belief in Russia that only a strong ruler can make Russia strong. This belief is very old and goes back at least to the days of Ivan the Terrible who defeated the Tartars and the German Teutons and united the country by ruling with iron fist. This is the myth anyway.

Stalin saw himself as someone who sometimes was harshly ruling but always for the good of the country. He identified directly with Ivan the Terrible and other tough rulers of the Russian history.

He had Sergei Eisenstadt (sp?) make a film about the life of Ivan the Terrible during the nineteen thirties. This film was shown throughout the Soviet Union and was really Stalin's way of saying what he was doing was for the good of Russia. Many Russians still believe that.

In many ways Stalin saw himself more as a modern Tsar, an absolute monarch, than a communist.

[TheStinger]

Would you want a homicidal sociopath running your country? if so, bring back Stalin

[chequita guevara]

I wonder if the people's of Africa, Asia, the Americas, New Zealand, and Australia who were cleared out to make room for capitalist enterprises would feel that our system is so much the superior. Maybe only in terms of actual numbers of people killed. Then toss in those who died from capitalist and imerialist wars, and those dying simply because they lack the ability to purhcase food and medicine. Every year capitalism kills 10 - 15 million "excess" people. In one decade, capitalism achieves a death toll equal to the most exagerated numbers of the Communists death toll.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
In one decade, capitalism achieves a death toll equal to the most exagerated numbers of the Communists death toll.

But not as a matter of deliberate policy

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
But not as a matter of deliberate policy

When a director in a board room, knowing that a decision he makes will condemn millions to death and makes it anyway, it's a matter of deliberate policy. The kidnapping and slaughter of tens of millions of Africans was a matter of deliberate policy. The Belgian Congo genocide was a matter of deliberate policy. The establishing of market relations that lead to the destruction of existing markets in Asia condemned millions to poverty and death. That was a matter of deliberate policy.

[Alexander's Horse]

Now you're just being silly

[TheStinger]

I fail to see how supporting communism is the same as supporting Stalin. Why anyone on the left, right middle or martian should even remotley be apologetic for him is beyond me

[Ben Kenobi]

Since when is Solzhenitsyn a ****ing reliable source?

Propaganda:

Why is he wrong? We always approach a primary source assuming that they are telling the truth.

Solzhenitsyn counts as a primary source. What about you Propaganda? Have you lived through these times?

Are you saying your sources don't fit with my primary ideology? That cuts both ways, Propaganda.
Deal with my source, show me why he is wrong. Don't shout bias and expect people to listen.