Was Stalin really that evil?

[Propaganda]

Originally posted by notyoueither


What about the numerous Ukrainian ex-nationals who lived through it and have told their stories to researchers around here? Where I live there is a high number of Ukrainian immigrants from both before and after the USSR. I guess they all read Conquest and collectively remembered it in the 1970s.

It's OK, dear. Plug your ears and cover your eyes. You too can see no evil and hear no evil.

"Numerous?" I'd like to hear about this. The fact is, there are only a few at the forefront of this; their backgrounds completely suspect, who are profiting from this. "Ex-nationals?" Are you admitting they were fascists/nationalists at one point or another in their lives?

BTW, what makes you think that a few "sources"(as "credible" as they are) equate to 7-20 million dead?

The numbers here are so ridiculous, anyway, that you can't even take it seriously. 10-20 million dead? There goes the Ukrainian population.

[loinburger]

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(Instrumental)

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[DinoDoc]

That's the best post in the thread since Prop showed up, loin.

/me reminds himself to wake Tass up later to tell him that Stalin actually was a commie again because he likes amusing smilies

[Az]

I listened to one of Suvorov's shows, but then he lost all credibilty when he said that The SU's prewar tanks were superior because they were wheeled.

[Myrddin]

Would the Stalin apologists (you know who you are) like to post their estimates for deaths for:

Collectivization and dekulakization
Ukraine famine
Gulag

and perhaps take some responsibility for the non-aggression pact with Germany that allowed WWII

[curtsibling]

There is no way to justify a monstrous, inhuman beast like Stalin.

If his apologists got a taste of this dictator's iron-fisted oppression,
they would squeal and wish they were back in their free-and-easy surroundings.

Anyone who can send their own son to death in a nazi concentration camp is a fiend.

Sorry, boys.
In my view, Stalin or Adolf have no saving graces.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Myrddin
and perhaps take some responsibility for the non-aggression pact with Germany that allowed WWII

To be fair,

WW2 was on the cards as soon as the Versailles treaty was drawn up.

Men like Stalin, Mussolini and Hitler merely took advantage of the geopolitical climate.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by curtsibling
There is no way to justify a monstrous, inhuman beast like Stalin.

Sure there is. Without Stalin's measures to industrialize the USSR, the country would have been conquered by the Nazis and we'd all be speaking German, those of us who weren't deemed inferior races and exterminated, that is. Stalin took a backwards thrid world country of dirt-farmers and made it the one of the two most powerful countries in the world. He had to do that in decades, not in centuries like the Western countries had. It's not like we have clean hands, our is just spread over a longer period of time.

Still, Stalin was the grave-digger of the revolution. If not for his terrible policies, it's unlikely that Hitler could have come to power in the first place. Furthermore, if the USSR had pursued international revolution, socialism would be world-wide now, and we wouldn't have all this famine and stupid war.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Sure there is. Without Stalin's measures to industrialize the USSR, the country would have been conquered by the Nazis and we'd all be speaking German, those of us who weren't deemed inferior races and exterminated, that is. Stalin took a backwards thrid world country of dirt-farmers and made it the one of the two most powerful countries in the world. He had to do that in decades, not in centuries like the Western countries had. It's not like we have clean hands, our is just spread over a longer period of time.

Still, Stalin was the grave-digger of the revolution. If not for his terrible policies, it's unlikely that Hitler could have come to power in the first place. Furthermore, if the USSR had pursued international revolution, socialism would be world-wide now, and we wouldn't have all this famine and stupid war.

People will never accept the steel fist of socialism.

Russian Industrial growth in the 1920s-30s?
A non-communist Russian government that was not at odds with the world could have achieved the same.
You see, trade and foreign manpower is a wonderful thing.

For communism, red is a fitting colour. Please don't attempt to sell it to me.
Communism is open to total power abuse and deals only in death and suffering,
if you seen the wall of photos made for the memory of Stalin's victims,
you would soon feel some remorse at your embrace of this hideous system.

Turning people into human slave animals is the mark of a monster under communism or ANY regime.

And any such regime is bound to fall.

With your kind of reasoning,
It is a great pity you were not born in 1900, in Russia,
so you could enjoy the wonders of communism first hand.

Stalin would probably shoot you.

[Az]

Russian Industrial growth in the 1920s-30s?
A non-communist Russian government that was not at odds with the world could have achieved the same.
You see, trade and foreign manpower is a wonderful thing.

pure speculation. How would capitalist Russia fare during the great depression, for once?

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Azazel

pure speculation. How would capitalist Russia fare during the great depression, for once?

Better trying capitalism than building a factory that costs more lives than the battle of Verdun.

Saying that the world would be better off under the domination of socialism is also 'pure speculation.'

[Alexander's Horse]

A great tragedy of World War 1 was that Russia was rapidly industrialising and modernising in 1914. It probably would have achieved super power status anyway without all the terrible bloodshed of the communist years. Its tottering feudal social and political structure simply could not withstand the shock of war. There was no October revolution, the Bolsheviks simply walked in and filled the power vacuum. It was more like a palace coup.

Its sobering to look at Russian society in 1914. Whole classes of people were wiped out over the next 70 years, particularly the first 30 years of communist rule. People were killed just for being from the wrong class, an aristocrat, bourgeois, kulak. Ethnic groups were mercilessly persecuted, the Ukrainians suffered terribly for example. Whole communities were liquidated. So much tragedy and destruction, so much human potential lost forever. Stalin was right at the centre of all this carnage. Lenin wasn't much better.

Look at Russia today - it really makes anyone who loves the country want to weep.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
A great tragedy of World War 1 was that Russia was rapidly industrialising and modernising in 1914. It probably would have achieved super power status anyway without all the terrible bloodshed of the communist years.

Exactly!
That is what I was saying all along!

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Look at Russia today - it really makes anyone who loves the country want to weep.

I know the feeling, so many lives sacrificed for what?

85 years of oppression, a testament to the folly of man, and communism.

[Alexander's Horse]

But you should be more understanding of people like serb and vagabond who have to live in russia today.

[Ben Kenobi]

Anybody read Solzhenitsyn?

He'd agree with you, AH.