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Last time Germany pumped up its weapon industry, something very bad happened, in particular to Greece too. Nah, better let us stay weak and pacifist pussies. 
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Whilst your right about the EU, I would like to know who is providing the security guarantee and from whom.Originally posted by DanS
I think it's funny that AH is trying to justify Chirac blowing his stack and being quite indelicate. What's it to Chirac, anyway? It's not like the EU has common foreign or defense policies. And who now provides the security guarantees? Not the EU...
The only country who could threaten europe is the US and I don't think depsite the latest squable that is going to go that farSpace is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
Douglas Adams (Influential author)Comment
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The EU has a common foreign policy on a lot of issues, eg on the Israel/Palestinian conflict. The problem is that it's a competing competence - if we can't agree a common position (or this position is just papering over the cracks), individual states still play around.Originally posted by DanS
It's not like the EU has common foreign or defense policies.
As for defence, just wait a bit.... Art 17 and 43 EUT...
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Can you have a common military without a common foreign policy?I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator RubioComment
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The chances of the UK letting France decide our defence and foreign policy are nilSpace is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
Douglas Adams (Influential author)Comment
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I doubt that the countries that were just insulted by the European king of the pompus dumb asses want France deciding thier defense and foreign policy either now.I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator RubioComment
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"Can you have a common military without a common foreign policy?"
You could, but it wouldn't be much use beyond the worst case of common defence.
"The chances of the UK letting France decide our defence and foreign policy are nil"
Exactly. Now we need to explain this to the pompous dickhead. He can learn. After all he learned to his great shock and dismay that he does not appoint the Austrian government. I think the lesson about Britain will be comparatively easy to understand for him.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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I would like to know who is providing the security guarantee and from whom
(1) The NATO Defense Planning Committee and (2) Russia
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Russia would not get very far if it invaded tommorrow with or wothout the USSpace is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
Douglas Adams (Influential author)Comment
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Its true that soviet policies were the cause of the collapse but without the economic pressure there would be no need to have those policies.Originally posted by HershOstropoler
The USSR could have continued to compete and delay its collapse. The USSR could have simply reduced military spending - its collapse ows more to the paranoid nature of its policies than the pressure.
Gorbachev made a brave decision but was caught by the fact that once reform started the soviets had no free market economy.Gorbachev essentially took a gamble on reform and lost.
If the soviets lost then the US won (as part of the western alliance). That doesnt change the fact that a key factor was that the soviets couldnt increase their military spending without more hardship while the US could.The Reagan arms buildup maybe accelerated the process, but its not so much that the US (or the West) won, more that the Commies lost. And key to that was that even the party elites either resignated or opted for reform, given a rotten economy going nowhere.
I never said that economic pressure alone caused the collapse. The economic pressure was the catalyst. I said that without that pressure it might not have ever happened (although I believe it would have happened eventually). I think the reason that North Korea hasnt collapsed is because there is no popular dissent. The country is virtually one big Gulag. Cuba will collapse once Fidel dies.If economic pressure from the US collapsed the USSR, why does North Korea not collapse?Last edited by SpencerH; February 18, 2003, 11:38.We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.Comment
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"Its true that soviet policies were the cause of the collapse but without the economic pressure there would be no need to have those policies."
The policies were part of the ideology. If the USSR had opted for the chinese way, it might still be around.
"I never said that economic pressure alone caused the collapse. The economic pressure was the catalyst."
If the USSR had not been ripe for collapse, especially incapable of making the necessary reforms, the arms race pressure would have had no effect. Given other options like returning to a more oppressive regime, it is difficult to tell what that catalyst actually effected, but it was just one factor among many.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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New Europe responds by telling France to mind its own business!
Mr Chirac's attack "displayed some nervousness", said Bulgarian Deputy Foreign Minister Lubomir Ivanov.
No applause now, eh Jacques?
Last edited by DanS; February 18, 2003, 12:10.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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In 1980 when Reagan became president there were no indications that the soviets were ready for reform. In 1982 when the Lech Walesa was elected in Poland the soviets moved forces to invade Poland. That wasnt needed since the Polish military took power. So again no indications of reform. Gorbachev wasnt a reformer when he took power (after Andropov) in 1983 but became one later. You may find it to be coincidence that the US arms build-up occurred at the same time as the collapse of the soviets but I do not. Thats not saying that it was the only factor though.Originally posted by HershOstropoler
If the USSR had not been ripe for collapse, especially incapable of making the necessary reforms, the arms race pressure would have had no effect. Given other options like returning to a more oppressive regime, it is difficult to tell what that catalyst actually effected, but it was just one factor among many.We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.Comment
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"In 1980 when Reagan became president there were no indications that the soviets were ready for reform."
The reformers were silent under Breshnev.
"In 1982 when the Lech Walesa was elected in Poland"
Huh?
"the soviets moved forces to invade Poland. That wasnt needed since the Polish military took power."
I think that was in 1981 and related to the Solidarnosc strikes only.
"Gorbachev wasnt a reformer when he took power (after Andropov) in 1983 but became one later."
Andropov was a moderate reformer. The concrete heads managed to elect that walking coffin, Chernyenko I think, after Andropov.
"You may find it to be coincidence that the US arms build-up occurred at the same time as the collapse of the soviets but I do not."
Not _just_ coincidence, but little causal effect. If you can trust the estimates the USSR increased military spending by a real 3 % annually in those years IIRC. Why should that break their back?“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Note to Chirac: You know....if you don't want 'em, I'm sure the USA could be persuaded to set up a Trans-Atlantic Economic union....
Careful, careful, little man.
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