Can we Create an America that can Lead the World

[Ben Kenobi]

go get a high school textbook on US history obiwan.

DuncanK

Do you really want me to do your research for you?

[DuncanK]

Ah, yes. That would make the conversation much more productive.

Hold on. I'll get a web page.

[Velociryx]

'zazel, but it IS true. Duncan has stated time and time again that if the outcomes are unequal, then it is unjust. At least half a dozen times in this thread.

And, your example with the saw in the neighborhood needs clarification then:

1) Who goes to buy said saw?
2) Where is the saw kept? Is it kept in a central location, or at the house of the last person to use it?
3) What sanctions are there against me if I choose to go out and buy my own saw? (and there would have to be sanctions of some kind, since I am forbidden to own the means of production exclusively)
4) How would you know if I did such a thing as number 3, above? Periodic house to house check by the PolitPolice?

-=Vel=-

[Az]

1) Who goes to buy said saw?
2) Where is the saw kept? Is it kept in a central location, or at the house of the last person to use it?
3) What sanctions are there against me if I choose to go out and buy my own saw? (and there would have to be sanctions of some kind, since I am forbidden to own the means of production exclusively)
4) How would you know if I did such a thing as number 3, above? Periodic house to house check by the PolitPolice?

1) The Local council member in charge.
2) In the council warehouse.
3) You wouldn't actually be able to buy it, since it's not available on free sell.
4) read 3.

This is a metaphore, obviously, I don't mind people having saws, I think they should be on free sell, but I think that most people don't really need them, and therefore, all those sawsgo to waste.

But since my concern is happiness, I think that the happiness created by the fact that many people own saws is greater than the loss of happiness because production was wasted on a product that wouldn't be put to use much, and will rust away.

It depends on the exact case really.

[DuncanK]

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/moriyuki/abuk...th_4.html#pred

Obiwan,

Look at this if you want. It's Max Weber. You might say he's left wing. He was for his time, but not for today. He talks about predestination and the protestant work ethic.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Azazel
This is a metaphore, obviously, I don't mind people having saws, I think they should be on free sell, but I think that most people don't really need them, and therefore, all those sawsgo to waste.

Excellent point on the inefficiencies of capitalism. new idea for this thread. That's great. keep it coming we are almost to 500.

[Ben Kenobi]

DuncanK,
Regarding predestination:

Not all Protestants are Calvinists. Your point only deals with the Calvinists in general and the Puritans in particular.

We cannot pass it by, and since to-day it can no longer be assumed as known to all educated men, we can best learn its content from the authoritative words of the Westminster Confession of 1647, which in this regard is simply repeated by both Independent and Baptist creeds.

BTW Baptist churches today don't teach predestination.

Citing the creeds he cites:

"Chapter IX (of Free Will), No. 3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation. So that a natural man, being altogether averse from that Good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."

No problem here. Salvation by Grace through Faith.

"No. 5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto, and all to the praise of His glorious grace."

Again, if one believes that God has foreknowledge, he must know who is among the elect or not.

"Chapter X (of Effectual Calling), No. 1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time effectually to call, by His word and spirit (out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature) . . . taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good...."

Again, same as before. Grace is a gift from God that cannot be earned by man through works.

"Chapter III (of God's Eternal Decree), No. 3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."

This last point is the hinge of your case. Assuming this is true, how does man know who is to be saved, and who is not? How does the church know that someone has been foreordained to Hell?

It does not necessarily follow from this that salvation cannot be obtained outside of the church, because God did save those before the church was even formed.

Nor does it follow that believers are to seperate themselves from the world around them, that they are not to love their fellow man.

Finally, this is an old confession, 1647. How many Protestant churches still accede to the terms outlined?

[DuncanK]

Obiwan,

I think what you are missing is that capitalism was created and justified with Puritan eithcs. I'm not saying that this is taught in church anymore, or that it is any official line of any Protestant church.

Predestination and the Puritan ethic are the religious justification of capitalism. That is that God pleases those who are more godly. And that owners of capital own capital because they have been chosen by God to own capital. And that the propertyless masses have a duty to work hard and to not aspire to own property because its there duty to work. When capitalism started to replace feudalism it had to be justified. Those with interests in the old feudal society did not just let their power slip away into the hands of capitalists. The capitalists needed justification for obtaining their new power.

As society became more secular these justifications for capitalism didn't just cease to exist in an instant and new justifications did not just spring up out of nowhere. These religious justifications for capitalism gradually changed into secular justifications. That is what I mean when I say that the way we justify capitalism today has very much to do with how it was justified in its origins.

[Ben Kenobi]

And that owners of capital own capital because they have been chosen by God to own capital.

People use 'religion' to justify many things, including things not taught by the religion.

Consider the parable of the rich man, who followed God and his commandments. Jesus insisted that the rich man sell his possessions, give the money to the poor, and to follow him. This is hardly the response of capitalism. The rich man in this case loved his wealth and possessions more than he did God. This is one of the fundamental conflicts between Christianity and capitalism, the idea that wealth and prosperity are meaningless unless devoted to proper aims.

The same is with capital. A person may be born into a rich family, but Christians will say this is meaningless unless he uses the gifts he has been given to do good. 'Those who have been given much, much more is expected. '

[DuncanK]

Good point. I think that Jim Jones and other cult leaders have twisted the Bible to mean that their followers must give all of their worldly posessions to the Church.

[Iron Chancellor]

Originally posted by DuncanK


I don't know if protestantism is the same in Canada? I don't know any Bible verses off hand. It's a general believe that people are poor because they are lazy, and being lazy is a sin.

I'm not an expert in this area. But the fact is well known with historians.

Well, actually, Jesus actually states several times that many poor people are poor because of accidents and things beyond their control and should be cared for.
Yes, laziness is a sin, but in the sense that you are dragging on other people, forcing them to care for you and not using the body you were given, in essence wasting a gift from God.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Iron Chancellor
Well, actually, Jesus actually states several times that many poor people are poor because of accidents and things beyond their control and should be cared for.
Yes, laziness is a sin, but in the sense that you are dragging on other people, forcing them to care for you and not using the body you were given, in essence wasting a gift from God.

And from what you've told me about your beliefs in capitalism this means poor people in general, since only a lazy person would be poor. According to you that is.

[LoneWolf]

Why does the world expect us to lead them? What about France, for example? Or Zambia?

[DuncanK]

France is more hated than we are. I think. Well, maybe not this year.

[MRT144]

lead the world on the highway to hell