Rumsfeld is a diplomatic genius

[BeBMan]

The veto is stupid. I don´t argue if it is correct "technically" or not, the political message is what counts. And here I think it is completely wrong to risk the alliance in that way.

So we have now: splitted Europe (of course, thats not only our fault), damaged NATO - all over the Iraq issue, where Germany hasn´t the power/influence to decide anything in the end - or does someone think the war will not take place because of Schröder? Muwhawha...

Just stupid.

[Dinner]

It still boils down to Turkey was asking for defensive equipment to help defend its territory & citizens against a Scud attack and three states blocked help to Turkey just so they could spit on Washington. It really is useless to put the allaince at risk like this because Turkey will still get the equipement requested but now the allaince is weaker.

[Main_Brain]

Its the Message that counts.

[Dinner]

They could have written a really nice note and saved the Turks some greef.

[CerberusIV]

My respect for Dubya's political abilities is increasing exponentially. He stands of the brink of achieving what Soviet leaders over four decades could not - splitting the European NATO members and destabilising the alliance! Political brilliance!!

[Willem]

Originally posted by LaRusso


I know, I know. However, Dutch did make an effort and sent both of their planes

Well add to that Canada's three tanks and a tugboat, and we may just be able to come up with a respectable force. Hell, we'll even throw in a troop of boy scouts.

[Willem]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
My respect for Dubya's political abilities is increasing exponentially. He stands of the brink of achieving what Soviet leaders over four decades could not - splitting the European NATO members and destabilising the alliance! Political brilliance!!

Now what exactly does this have to do with Dubya's diplomacy? He's not the one that decided to leave a treaty member out in the cold. Obviously he's not the only idiot sticking his foot in his mouth, it seems you have a few diplomatic dolts on your side of the pond as well.

[Drake Tungsten]

Hell, we'll even throw in a troop of boy scouts.

I'll take Canadian Boy Scouts over French troops any day of the week...

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Oerdin
It really is useless to put the allaince at risk like this because Turkey will still get the equipement requested but now the allaince is weaker.

Exactly what I meant. One could laugh about it, if the issue wasn´t so serious. Some positions of my government are totally absurd: they say they grant Turkey the help, but not now. Then they say we offer Patriot systems, but not with German soldiers - the Dutch will do the job instead.

Doesn´t look like a convincing concept to solve the crisis.

[HershOstropoler]

"Now what exactly does this have to do with Dubya's diplomacy?"

If he wants support, he has to compromise on his "war under any circumstances" position. But he has made it clear that he doesn't need support (or expects to get it anyway, seems he's not sure on which one).

[Willem]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler

If he wants support, he has to compromise on his "war under any circumstances" position. But he has made it clear that he doesn't need support (or expects to get it anyway, seems he's not sure on which one).

Now where is the compromise in telling a treaty member that they're on their own and can't expect any help if the sh!t hits the fan? It takes two to tango in the diplomatic world, and your side has clearly shown by this action that it's capable of making ridiculous mistakes as well. Granted that Bush may have been more pushy than he's needed to be, but I don't see how jeapordizing a long standing treaty organization is going to help matters any. It's just adding more fuel to the fire IMO.

[HershOstropoler]

Taking the piss into NATO is not a good idea (and I said that as someone who wishes NATO to be dissolved). But for that it also took two sides: The Bushies who want to instrumentalise NATO for their war, and the francogermans who want to instrumentalise NATO for delaying the war.

[Willem]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Taking the piss into NATO is not a good idea (and I said that as someone who wishes NATO to be dissolved). But for that it also took two sides: The Bushies who want to instrumentalise NATO for their war, and the francogermans who want to instrumentalise NATO for delaying the war.

And both sides are stumbling around in the dark trying to find a compromise for something that they all essentially agree upon, namely the disarming of Iraq. Yes Bush has made alot of mistakes, but you can't place the blame on his doorstep alone, especially in light of this current development.

PS I agree with you, NATO needs to be reformed. I personally would like to see my country pull out of the alliance, it would free up a lot of resources that we could put to better use in our peacekeeping duties.

[HershOstropoler]

Well that's politicians. The even weirder thing is that it created a rift within the EU while there are very few differences in opinion on Iraq. Really, really stupid, even by political standards.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
But he kept his mouth closed when the far more dangerous Italian government was formed! The FPÖ turned out to be a bit domesticable and the pilars of our democracy, press liberty and the separation of legislation, jurisdiction and executive branch wasn't threatened! And now look to Italy! The most "center" party in the government with Berlusconi is at least as far to the right as the FPÖ... I hate the FPÖ myself, but it was damn obvious that Austria was judged with other standards than Italy.

I'm not sure at all, but I thought he called them fascists. Though I agree Berlusconi is far more dangerous and Michel reacted much softer. But then again, Michel is an economical right-winger like Berlusconi, so what can you can expect?