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Rumsfeld is a diplomatic genius

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  • #76
    I like Rumsie. He's like a teddy bear that always wanted to be a werewolf. Just which whacko gave him all the toys? Ah yes, dubya...

    Well, what's the outlook now? The bushies will get their war, mid-march or so? France will reluctantly go along. Germany will say "uh, well". NATO is in deep **** over Turkey already.

    The funny thing is that virtually all of europe, including the politicians right down to Blair, do not want this war. Bush & co want it under any circumstance.

    So the interesting thing will be the follow-up. At one point all US allies, including the UK, will be fed up to the point where an alliance ends (if Iraq turns out to be a big mess, the sooner).

    On the other hand, our politicians have shown a level of incompetence over this, that it is about time for another round of election ass-kicking here in good ol' europe. That should bring us a step forward...
    “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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    • #77
      Originally posted by HershOstropoler
      On the other hand, our politicians have shown a level of incompetence over this, that it is about time for another round of election ass-kicking here in good ol' europe. That should bring us a step forward...
      That should bring us a new bunch of incompetent wannabe-wiseguys. At least here in Germany it's a tradition to put the most incompetent idiots into political offices. And all parties follow this tradition.

      Halfway competent politicians like foreign minister Fischer only happen accidentally.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Der PH
        At least here in Germany it's a tradition to put the most incompetent idiots into political offices. And all parties follow this tradition.
        That's a common tradition. Dubya, anyone? Or Berlusconi? Yeltsin, in the past? Or Blair, who can't even properly lie, which should be a basic skill for a politician?

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Sir Ralph
          Or Blair, who can't even properly lie, which should be a basic skill for a politician?

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          • #80
            Well it's the purpose of democracy to have gullible and mediocre people in power. The prime civic duty is to whip them in the direction we the sovereign citizens want.

            About Blair's dossier, that was so stupid, if I wouldn't know governments I'd assume he did it to torpedo the US rush to war.
            “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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            • #81
              NATO is in deep **** over Turkey already.

              Like Rumsfeld, I find the Belgian, German and French response in NATO inexplicable. (As I understand it, Fischer was willing to go along with the request.) It looked to me like the US carefully crafted the request to be of an entirely defensive nature and to allow for planning for a number of different contingencies.
              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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              • #82
                The latest from Rumsfeld: "hesitation increases the likelihood of war"

                This is entirely true. Hesitation takes the pressure off of Hussein and allows him the luxury of miscalculating that he can get through this with his WMD intact.
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by DanS
                  The latest from Rumsfeld: "hesitation increases the likelihood of war"

                  This is entirely true. Hesitation takes the pressure off of Hussein and allows him the luxury of miscalculating that he can get through this with his WMD intact.
                  Yea right. And warmongering reduces the likelihood of war. Is that what you mean?

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                  • #84
                    No, that's not what I mean.
                    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                    • #85
                      So what would reduce the likelihood of war?

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                      • #86
                        A situation where the choice is made clear to Hussein. Either he will lose his WMD or will be overthrown. This dithering sends incorrect information to Hussein and invites him to miscalculate.

                        Post WW2 (and drawing on WW2 experience) it has been the bedrock of American foreign policy that the US is willing and able to use force, including nuclear weapons, when we say that the option is on the table. This is a decidedly non-pacifist posture that has seemed to help keep the overall peace very well.
                        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                        • #87
                          Dan:

                          "Like Rumsfeld, I find the Belgian, German and French response in NATO inexplicable."

                          NATO is a defensive alliance. "Defending" Turkey against the fallout from a US attack is quite questionable. Also, the issue is mostly about timing - why should they go along with Washington's timetable?

                          "Hesitation takes the pressure off of Hussein and allows him the luxury of miscalculating that he can get through this with his WMD intact."

                          Well this is correct, but the Washington position of war no matter what virtually invited obstruction.
                          “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                          • #88
                            "Defending" Turkey against the fallout from a US attack is quite questionable.

                            Why so? Hussein lobs a chemical warhead into Ankara. This wouldn't fall under NATO?

                            why should they go along with Washington's timetable

                            Because to do otherwise could leave Turkey undefended.
                            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                            • #89
                              NATO is a treaty about mutual defence if subject to external attack. Sounds fine - until the attack is provoked by the actions of another NATO member state.
                              Never give an AI an even break.

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                              • #90
                                Dan:

                                "Why so? Hussein lobs a chemical warhead into Ankara. This wouldn't fall under NATO?"

                                It would, unless Turkey is aiding in an attack - which makes it an offensive war on Turkey's part.

                                "Because to do otherwise could leave Turkey undefended."

                                Then Washington should adjust its timetable.
                                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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