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France, Germany and now Belgium are way out of line. Regardless of how Iraq turns out, they should have no future in NATO.
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A lot of people here are demanding this since long. Leaving the NATO would be a very popular step. Although it would contradict the purpose of the NATO, to keep the US on top, Germany in and Russia out.Originally posted by Ned
France, Germany and now Belgium are way out of line. Regardless of how Iraq turns out, they should have no future in NATO.Comment
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Yeah, let's dissolve NATO and get over it.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Yeah, like cozying up to Saddam during the early days of the Reagan administration.Originally posted by DanS
Rummy has a way of being out in front of issues.
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."Comment
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It would, unless Turkey is aiding in an attack - which makes it an offensive war on Turkey's part.
Is there a distinction in the NATO charter, or is this just the way Hershell sees the situation?
Then Washington should adjust its timetable.
I don't suppose the veto process was meant to fine tune the timing of military action.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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"Is there a distinction in the NATO charter"
The destinction that it is a defensive alliance. If you can't see the connection, you've really been living in Washington for too long.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Everybody, including the three vetoing countries, accepts that Turkey should be defended under the umbrella of the alliance. And Turkey is going to assist in any attack on Iraq.
The fact remains that these countries used the veto to leverage a timing issue unrelated to NATO (but rather, to the UN). This seems inexplicable to me.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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I think it's incredible that the US tries to force NATO members into this. It would be a lot easier to say: "We agree to disagree" and keep the NATO out of this. The only thing such a pressure on NATO members does is endangering old alliances. Don't forget that the NATO is a defense-alliance and assistance is obligatory only in the case that one of the members is attacked. No NATO member has been attacked by Iraq, thus no member who opposes the war should be threatened with "this is the end of the NATO". The US government somehow tries to say that this preemptive strike is an action of defense, but it simply is not. - Bad enough that the disagreement on the issues weighs heavily on the relations, it's scary that the US government really threatens to end an era of an alliance because they want to push through an offensive war and force the allies into compliance.Originally posted by Ned
France, Germany and now Belgium are way out of line. Regardless of how Iraq turns out, they should have no future in NATO."The world is too small in Vorarlberg". Austrian ex-vice-chancellor Hubert Gorbach in a letter to Alistar [sic] Darling, looking for a job...
"Let me break this down for you, fresh from algebra II. A 95% chance to win 5 times means a (95*5) chance to win = 475% chance to win." Wiglaf, Court jester or hayseed, you judge.Comment
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And war is peace, love is hate.....Originally posted by DanS
Everybody, including the three vetoing countries, accepts that Turkey should be defended under the umbrella of the alliance. And Turkey is going to assist in any attack on Iraq.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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dp. How did this happen?"The world is too small in Vorarlberg". Austrian ex-vice-chancellor Hubert Gorbach in a letter to Alistar [sic] Darling, looking for a job...
"Let me break this down for you, fresh from algebra II. A 95% chance to win 5 times means a (95*5) chance to win = 475% chance to win." Wiglaf, Court jester or hayseed, you judge.Comment
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So Belgium blocked the transfer to Turkey of Patriot anti-missile missiles and chemical and bio weapons defense suits on the grounds that would inflame the situation. I fail to see how giving Turkey defensive items will inflame the situation.
If it was Tanks that were being transfered I would understand but MOP suits are going to inflame the situation? I'm sensing the Belgium government is pandering to a domestic audience on this issue.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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And war is peace, love is hate...
Yes, I can sympathize with you. It's tough to follow at times.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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first of all a situation like this has been forseen by constituting the NATO-Charta. this should be the reason why London and Ankara are keeping quite cool after the statement of those "nasty three weasels".Originally posted by Ned
France, Germany and now Belgium are way out of line. Regardless of how Iraq turns out, they should have no future in NATO.
on the other hand it is obvious why Washington is almost(?) becoming nuts about it. they didn´t get the legal prerequsites for their war so far. and now Paris, Brussels and Berlin don´t even give them the factical prerequisites also!
just for the record: NATO wasn´t raised for making unilateral attacks possible by escorting the agressor.
as long as Washington doesn´t hit the trigger Turkey is safe. too bad Washington wants war from the beginning of the era Bush, no matter the costs. maybe the Veto can prevent the war, since nothing else seems to work.
as soon Turkey isn´t safe anymore ALL NATO members will do anything to help them out. there´s absolutely no doubt about it. the Veto is directed to Washington's warmongers and not to Ankara.
another thing is in my mind: since Bush raised power in USA, has there ever been a littly tiny compromise accepted or offered by him to anyone and about anything? they´re just demanding and demanding and wanting and forcing and demanding.....
I can tell you, this sucks
justice is mightComment
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Originally posted by Oerdin I'm sensing the Belgium government is pandering to a domestic audience on this issue.
And an American-Iraqi war doesn't have a domestic audience component?
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And to elaborate a little, our foreign minister Louis Michel has been known to play the moral consciousness of the world before... For example when extreme-right entered the Austrian government.
Also the green party, pacifists of course, is currently in the Belgian government.Comment
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