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An equvialent plan for Irqa would mean 100's of billions of dollars to Iraq, that ain't gonna happen.
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Vel:
"So yes....without the Marshall plan, the recovery of those two nations would have been a) slowed to a scale measured in generations"
I wonder why this myth is so persistent. Can you give me a rough guess what percentage the Marshall plan aid was compared to wetsern european GDP at the time? I'm really curious.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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I think that's kinda sad. I identify myself by what I believe in... what I'm FOR, not what I'm against.anti-americanism is a key element of my identity since my pre-teen days
By the way, that feeds another American notion of Europeans (and the world in general): that no matter what we do, you will hate (or dislike, mock, criticize) us anyway. Which then begs the question: why bother?
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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"no matter what we do, you will hate (or dislike, mock, criticize) us anyway."
dislike, mock, criticize - so will you. As long as it stays within limits... as for hate, I do not think many europeans hate americans. Many may find you annoying. Yet we reserve the right to hate your government.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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HO....don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'll say this:
Europeans have remarked about how violent and bloody and destructive WWII was (see Spiffor's post above on that very topic). Now....you can't have it both ways....either it was exceedingly bloody, violent and destructive (which means that HUGE, vast percentages of Euro's ability to produce anything were destroyed), or it wasn't.
If it was, then it's fair to say that you can't just magically wave your hand and in 5-6 years make it all good again, true?
After WWI, Germany was treated like the loser in all wars prior...hung out to dry and left in a sad, sorry state.
Desperation at their situation drove the Nazi party into power and into the arms of WWII.
The Marshall plan helped break that cycle.
-=Vel=-Comment
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It's a foolish comparison frankly. The invasion of Kuwait has some parallells to Hitler's annexation of Austria. If he would have been stopped then, possibly the war might not have happened.Originally posted by Velociryx
Rather akin to waiting till the guy with the funny moustache had built his country into a powerhouse and armed it to the teeth, no? Do you not see the same general dynamic at work there?
But the world didn't let Saddam continue into Saudi Arabia etc., unlike Hitler in his time. He has been contained, and with the huge disparity of military might between either side, there's no reason to expect that we can't keep him that way. Especially if there's weapons inspectors and other surveillance measures watching his every move.Comment
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I think that's the point. I don't think that being anti American is typical for Europeans. A lot of Europeans were quite pro American before Bush jr. And I think they'll be pro American after him again. But sorry, he and his policy of "I bonk your head, because I've got the bigger club" stink, that's my opinion too. Most of us are just anti Bush, and if some people see it as anti American, so be it.Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Yet we reserve the right to hate your government.Comment
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Willem - The difference is that "before the war" (ie - read: Now) Iraq ISN"T an economic powerhouse.
It would not take much investment in infrastructure (relatively speaking) to make the Iraqui people in general, better off than they are right now. We don't need to build sparkling skyscrapers in the desert, you know....we just need to show them that there's an improvement.
Given the living conditions in that country at present....that ain't gonna be all that hard to do.
-=Vel=-Comment
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It is worth remembering that Germany was starting to rebuild after WW1, despite having to pay very large reparations under Versailles until the Wall Street crash pushed their economy over the brink and that led to the circumstances that gave Hitler his chance.Originally posted by Willem
As for Japan and Germany, don't forget that they were both economic powerhouses before they were destroyed. I'd say claiming that they became succesful post-war nations because of the Marshall Plan is a little off-base. They already had the skills and know-how in order to rebound afterwards, with alot of US help of course. It just would have taken them longer without assistance, just like Germany was able to recover from the economic havoc that the Versailles Treaty brought about.
I'm not saying Hitler was the USA's fault but making the point that when the USA catches a cold, everyone sneezes. The US government takes decisions that affect more than just US citizens and Americans apparently don't give a damn about that fact. Is it then a surprise that non-Americans get a little bit negative?Never give an AI an even break.Comment
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"Now....you can't have it both ways....either it was exceedingly bloody, violent and destructive"
It was all that, but even in Germany, the destructions of the capital stock were quite limited. The main problems were with interruptions in the infrastructure, and the lack of workers.
The Marshall plan was about 15 billion $ over 4-5 years. Western Europe's annual GDP around 1950 at exchange rates was something like 100-120 billion $, or 400-600 billion $ over 4-5 years. The capital stock would be 300-400 billion $. It's silly to claim the Marshall plan "rebuilt" europe. It helped a lot in rebuilding europe, though, by allowing the funding of US imports.
Also, the countries that did not participate in the plan saw rapid growth in the 1950s. It was later that they fell behind.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Nukes are to world politics what junk bonds are to corporate finance.
Overnight, the weak can become impossibly strong.
Yes...he's contained. And currently standing IN DEFIANCE of (yet another) UN resolution.
Containment has done nothing about that, nor has it done anything positive for the Iraquis themselves.
So we should pat ourselves on the back and congratulate each other for a successful containment, while Saddam makes a mockery of the UN, and bides his time so he can make nukes.
Great plan.
And after he has nukes....then we should whine some more about how nobody did anything to prevent it.
-=Vel=-Comment
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HO - And as we have seen (using WWI as a guide) the victorious powers in Western Europe would have surely jumped right in and helped rebuild Germany, right?
Doesn't matter what the GDP is if the money never gets where it's needed.
-=Vel=-Comment
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But what would have happened if Germany would have tried to rebuild without the straight jacket of the Versailles treaty? You're implying that the country would have reverted to fascism once again without US aid. I don't see how that necessarliy follows. I won't dispute that US assistance helped out immensely, but I think your over-exaggerating the importance of the Marshall Plan just a tad.Originally posted by Velociryx
Desperation at their situation drove the Nazi party into power and into the arms of WWII.
The Marshall plan helped break that cycle.
-=Vel=-
Europeans are a very resourceful people, that's why Western civilization has ended up being predominant in today's world. You seem to forget that it was this cullture that planted the seeds for your American "let's just do it" attitude. The fact that you started out in a raw country just brought it to the forefront of your collective psyche.Comment
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Don't worry, I have several other elements defining my identity, including my "positive" beliefs. But anti-Americanism is just such an old part of my personality, and had such a structurating role, that I cannot simply abandon it.Originally posted by Arrian
I think that's kinda sad. I identify myself by what I believe in... what I'm FOR, not what I'm against.
However, it is stricly personal. I had to wait until the end of senior high (about 5 years ago) to find some people of my age who didn't display an absolute support to the US. Yes, in France. I have yet to find any other person where antiamericanism had a structurating role in the construction of identity. And I know tons of French people
I don't believe Europeans and the world will mock you no matter what you do. The recent surge of antiamericanism makes me think it is an epidermic reaction, at least for now, and that there isn't any deep rooted hate for America.By the way, that feeds another American notion of Europeans (and the world in general): that no matter what we do, you will hate (or dislike, mock, criticize) us anyway. Which then begs the question: why bother?
I remember, for example, how America was praised by the European media for its role in the Oslo treaty between Israel and Palestine. OK, it was ten years ago, and I don't remember America getting any praise since then
However, the hate for America can become deeper and stronger if the US continues to foster it with unilateral and arrogant warmongering - it is at least how it is percieved here.
Also, the hate for America will most probably be a constant in the Arab world, since Israel and America humiliate it for so long (again, I'm talking about perceptions of reality here). The deliberate attempt to spread the American way of life worldwide will also make the hate more solid in the populations who do not suffer from military humiliations : cultural humiliation leaves stains as well."I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- DisComment
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Like I said, what plan is there to ensure that Iraq doesn't splinter into Kurd/Sunni/Shiite factions? Frankly I don't think there is one. Bush is going in half-cocked IMO, and the Iraqi people could end up being much worse off than they are now.Originally posted by Velociryx
Willem - The difference is that "before the war" (ie - read: Now) Iraq ISN"T an economic powerhouse.
It would not take much investment in infrastructure (relatively speaking) to make the Iraqui people in general, better off than they are right now. We don't need to build sparkling skyscrapers in the desert, you know....we just need to show them that there's an improvement.
Given the living conditions in that country at present....that ain't gonna be all that hard to do.
-=Vel=-Comment
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