What the Eurotwits would like George W. Bush to say

[HershOstropoler]

I'd suppose that the loss of realism among the political elites is worse than among voters.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
I'd suppose that the loss of realism among the political elites is worse than among voters.

It's hard to tell a lot of times whether people in power actually believe what they say, or are merely playing to the crowd. Once the crowd gets ahold of an idea, even the elites can't stop it, which is the (often) awful power of propoganda. As a tool it is very hard to calibrate.

[Velociryx]

Excellent article indeed, Sik! I found his observations about both anti-americanism and anti-europeanism to be spot on. The imagery he evoked in his piece is, IMO, the *exact* charicture that a healthy hunk of Americans see Europe with.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

I repeat:

Funny how when the discussion turns to the ramifications of an US invasion, that all the American posters remain silent.

Terribly sorry for being off-line when you steered the discussion this way, Willem.

America is hated pretty much everywhere in the world.

Maybe Americans would be wise to wonder why.

Clearly. In the same vein, consider that the hatred thrown our way (particularly by our supposed friends & allies) will not be easily forgotten.

So the real challenge is to repair the damage on both sides of the pond. The efforts thus far by our politicians have been uninspiring.

-Arrian

[Willem]

Originally posted by Sikander


Well it sure worked much better in WW2 than it has tended to throughout history. You picked a bad example, and with so many good ones to choose from.

Well it worked much better in the sense that there was more death and destruction than in any other conflict in the history of warfare yes. What exactly is your point?

[Velociryx]

Welcome back, Arrian!

And Willem....the *point* is that the powers defeated in WWII were rebuilt, and became among the strongest economic powers in the world today. Has it somehow escaped your attention that Germany and Japan are economic powerhouses today and that this is *because of* the successful post-war rebuilding and restructuring that occured.

One need only to look at Germany's condition after WWI, and the dire straits they were left in after that conflict (which, btw, gave rise to the conflict of WWII) to see the marked difference.

I could be wrong....but I believe that was the point.

-=Vel=-

[Willem]

Originally posted by Sikander


Since when do states comport their foreign policy as though it were a judicial matter? Why did Canada declare war on Germany without solid proof that the Germans in fact did not attack Poland in self defense? Was your Grandfather demanding that the British prove that the Germans invaded without provocation? Or did Canadians back then have more common sense than you do, and consider the sources of their information as well as its content?

I suspect my "father" was to concerned whether his homeland, The Netherlands, was to be next on the list. I guess his fears would have been justified.

People living then weren't foolish enough to even think that Hitler was an innocent victim of the Polish, he had already been making his intentions clear for some time. Poland just provided the ultimate confirmation.

Did the allied forces question whether Kuwait had somehow provoked Iraq? Your argument is quite silly frankly.

[Velociryx]

Actually Willem....the argument is a pretty good one.

Not one that you want to hear, apparently....but it raises a valid point nonetheless.

-=Vel=-

[Willem]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Welcome back, Arrian!

And Willem....the *point* is that the powers defeated in WWII were rebuilt, and became among the strongest economic powers in the world today. Has it somehow escaped your attention that Germany and Japan are economic powerhouses today and that this is *because of* the successful post-war rebuilding and restructuring that occured.

One need only to look at Germany's condition after WWI, and the dire straits they were left in after that conflict (which, btw, gave rise to the conflict of WWII) to see the marked difference.

I could be wrong....but I believe that was the point.

-=Vel=-

Sorry, you'll have to qoute, I forget what that "point" was.

As for Japan and Germany, don't forget that they were both economic powerhouses before they were destroyed. I'd say claiming that they became succesful post-war nations because of the Marshall Plan is a little off-base. They already had the skills and know-how in order to rebound afterwards, with alot of US help of course. It just would have taken them longer without assistance, just like Germany was able to recover from the economic havoc that the Versailles Treaty brought about.

[Velociryx]

Yes yes...no doubt that the in-house expertise was critical to their rapid recovery...but no less critical than the massive infusion of capital that made the recovery possible. You have already said in your own post that it would have taken longer without that capital, and in fact, far, FAR longer, given the extent of the devastation. So yes....without the Marshall plan, the recovery of those two nations would have been a) slowed to a scale measured in generations, and b) quite likely led to yet another European war (kinna like it did the last time).

Thus....it can be fairly measured as a post-war success. No new Euro war, and a rapid recovery. I'd call that....pretty successful.

-=Vel=-

[Willem]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Actually Willem....the argument is a pretty good one.

Not one that you want to hear, apparently....but it raises a valid point nonetheless.

-=Vel=-

No I agree to a certain extent, though I also think it's irrelevant in this case. Saddam hasn't attacked anyone for a long time, nor has he shown any inclination to do so since Kuwait. The comparison to the invasion of Poland just doesn't apply IMO. Hitler had already annexed Austria and Chechoslovokia (sp?), so his intentions at that time were quite clear, and he had been rattling his sabres for some time. Not so with present day Iraq.

[Sava]

Saddam comparisons to Hitler are stupid.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Arrian
Clearly. In the same vein, consider that the hatred thrown our way (particularly by our supposed friends & allies) will not be easily forgotten.

So the real challenge is to repair the damage on both sides of the pond. The efforts thus far by our politicians have been uninspiring.

Agreed. While I will never be pro-American (anti-americanism is a key element of my identity since my pre-teen days), I hope that all this mud and hatred stops at some point. I'm not referring to the hatred towards the states and the policies, but the growing hatred between peoples.

(I mean, it IS normal for us Euros to hate the US when it doesn't ratify Kyoto ; it is much less normal to insult or brawl with American people )

[Velociryx]

Saddam has made no bones about the fact that he WANTS to take his country nuclear.

Why do you suppose that is? Do you think he has it in his mind to build lots of nuclear power plants to provide electricity for his people?

And IF we give him the time he needs to do it, do you REALLY believe he won't make regular use of, or threaten his neighbors WITH his newfound big stick?

If you sincerely believe that, then you are turning a blind eye to his track record and recent Iraqi history.

Yeah....let's wait till he's got nukes before we decide to do anything.

Rather akin to waiting till the guy with the funny moustache had built his country into a powerhouse and armed it to the teeth, no? Do you not see the same general dynamic at work there?

-=Vel=-

[Willem]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Thus....it can be fairly measured as a post-war success. No new Euro war, and a rapid recovery. I'd call that....pretty successful.

-=Vel=-

I agree, but is the US prepared to institute a form of the Marshall Plan for post-invasion Iraq? We hear alot about invasion, but there's been zero discussion as to what will happen afterwards.

Frankly, I don't think that Bush has even thought that far ahead, he certainly hasn't indicated so. How exactly will he insure that Iraq doesn't splinter into Kurd/Sunni/Shiite factions, and all the civil chaos that will ensue. We don't know, he hasn't mentioned a word about it.