What the Eurotwits would like George W. Bush to say

[Spiffor]

By "vision" I didn't necessarily mean "waging war around the world". While a unified EU will de facto be a major diplomatic and military power, even superior to Russia in China in the forseeable future, it doesn't mean Europe will take the American way to "solve" problems.
But maybe Europe will finally apply its way of solving problems, rather than just talking about it.

As for a transatlantic alliance : way too early. For now, Europe needs a common rival to get some feeling of unity, and the US just happen to be the most convenient rival of the time. A EU-US meaningful alliance will happen only when China or the Arabic World will be enough of a threat.

[Velociryx]

Ramo - I know, on both counts....but the point is that the findings mentioned above ARE the findings of the folks in Europe, and represent the supposedly superior position. IF the Pals aren't getting the money, then it's not doing them much good, which is worse, in some ways, than the theory being just plain wrong, because the execution is shoddy. I was not making any attempt to make sense of the logic of it, only demonstrate that it hasn't been any more effective or "superior" to US methodologies in the region.

And Spiffor...well, I did say long term.... And I'll be looking forward to the new European emergence, with full understanding that we won't always see eye to eye.

Friends get over it...

-=Vel=-

[HershOstropoler]

Vel:

"whether YOU personally care about the center stage position or not, it is clear that the "movers and shakers" of the EU certainly do."

Some do, some don't. I do not know why I should be identified with the politicians.

"So...the EU starts sending lossa Euros to the Palestenians. Now...if the theory was correct, and poverty was the root cause, the Palestenians (who recieve the largest amount of aid, per capita of any group I know of) should be among the LEAST likely group to perform acts of terror"

First I doubt that we get anywhere near US aid for Israel, probably not even Jordan. Anyway, the situation was relatively stable until it got out of hands on both sides. And aid is pointless when the Israelis destroy the aid projects, from gaza airport to cultural institutions.

Is poverty the main cause? I don't think so. But your argument does not speak against it.

"When US economic sanctions were put in place against Iraq, the European community (and especially France and Germany) railed against them"

Those are UN sanctions. I'm not sure what you mean. The reviews of the oil for food programs? The US buys (or bought) the bulk of Iraq's allowed oil exports anyway, under sanctions.

"Is that why then, France in particular, and many other European countries do massive business deals with them?"

Business and the idea that isolation will only help the fundis, not the reformers in Iran.

"we're at least out there trying."

And the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Just look at drug prohibition (well, some there have good intentions....)

"I can sorta understand why the US Administration gets exhasperated. Wouldn't you?"

I understand that the current admin gets exasperated by dissent. But its approach is so utterly chaotic and counterproductive, that there is little to do but dissent. The Bush admin has shown several times that it is impervious to arguments. The hystery about Kyoto and the ICC have shown that in abundance.

"Lastly, I'm not sure where you got your "Europe spends 300%-400% more on foriegn aid than the US" figure from"

3-4 times as much, I think I said.

http://www.oecd.org/xls/M00037000/M00037866.xls

27 billion $ vs 11 billion, but in 2000 exchange rates. GDP-wise 0.33 vs 0.11 %, so given equal GDPs, it's about 3 times.

"*imagine* what a trans-atlantic economic union would do...."

I doubt the US would do anything beyond NAFTA. And I guess they wouldn't even do something like NAFTA with the EU. It's bad enough for Washington to lose all those WTO cases.

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I'm *certainly* not saying that America is without fault! God knows, we've made some whoppers of mistakes! (and will, no doubt make more in the future). The difference in the past couple decades is....we're at least out there trying. The world is a pretty mucked up place, post-cold war, and we (collectively) did a lot of stuff not to be proud of in its winning. We could sure use a more active hand in cleaning it up. THAT is my main point. And my main contention is that until Europe (both individual nations and collectively) starts taking an active hand (and by "active hand" I mean doing something beyond griping about the direction that America is heading off in), I can sorta understand why the US Administration gets exhasperated. Wouldn't you?

-=Vel=-

Maybe the world would be less mucked up if the US (amongst others) stopped trying to correct its old mistakes by possibly making new ones. Then again politicians who don't claim they can correct the mistakes of their predecessors don't get elected.

[Velociryx]

See? It's one of those posts that LOOKS like it has substance, but filled with artful dodges. Well done tho....

While the rest of the post picked apart my points against "superior" European notions in the ME, the heart and soul of the matter was answered with the dodgy reply of: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions..." (which of course, implies that because this is so, it is better to do nothing).

Yes it is, and you wanna know where the road leads with NO intentions?

Nowhere.

With well-intentioned action, there is not a 100% chance that the road will lead to hell.

With nothing but hot air, there is a 100% chance of nothing changing.

:: shrug::

it's cool tho.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Cerberus - it'd be nice if it worked that way, wouldn't it?

The only problem though, is that when we sit back and do nothing, you know what we get?

We get shreiking and hand-wringing from Europe and elsewhere that we're becoming isolationist and not standing up to tyranny.

Interesting catch-22, wouldn't you say?



-=Vel=-

[HershOstropoler]

"See? It's one of those posts that LOOKS like it has substance, but filled with artful dodges. Well done tho...."

I'm a lawyer, and I'm one of the best.

Seriously though, on some issues we see what we percieve as american overactivism that is difficult to explain. Maybe it's because we did the crusade thing ages ago, and it didn't work too well. Maybe we are too cynical.

But do you really prefer the US occupying Iraq with a huge chance of messing it up over the current permanent, but low-level crisis?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Cerberus - it'd be nice if it worked that way, wouldn't it?

The only problem though, is that when we sit back and do nothing, you know what we get?

We get shreiking and hand-wringing from Europe and elsewhere that we're becoming isolationist and not standing up to tyranny.

Interesting catch-22, wouldn't you say?



-=Vel=-

Actually, even if I'm heavily left-winger, I really wanted Bush to win 2000 elections, because I was looking forward for US isolationism
Yet another dire consequence of Sept. 11

[Velociryx]

HO: Ahhh....I thought I recognized that from somewhere....

's true, Europe and the US approach problems from very different angles. On the one hand, this could be devastatingly effective, because what one misses, the other surely won't. Unfortunately, this requires that both parties be relatively equal on the world stage, and right now, this isn't so. Perhaps when you guys get caught up on that military infrastructure thing....I hope so, it'd be great to see!

As to Iraq...I have to say, yes! Saddam is like month old leftovers in your fridge. He's a cold war relic, and, just as the cold war that spawned him has ended, his regieme ALSO needs to be ended. And it shouldn't stop there, either.

For the first time in history, we....the western, democratic world, have the opportunity to ensure democratic liberties for everybody on the planet. If we work together, we can change the world in ways that almost defy comprehension. Not by creating goose-stepping empires, but by unleashing the awesome powers of Democracy everywhere. As the first to arrive at that place, we are pioneers, and *as* pioneers, we need to be resolute and fearless as we explore the new possibilities the post-cold war has for us.

It's up to us though...if we divide, then we risk falling back into those same old historic patterns.

I hope we can rise above that, and usher in a new, democratic era for everybody.

-=Vel=-
(hmmm....that almost sounded like a campaign speech....with the difference being that I meant it sincerely)

[Willem]

Originally posted by Velociryx
As the first to arrive at that place, we are pioneers, and *as* pioneers, we need to be resolute and fearless as we explore the new possibilities the post-cold war has for us.

Well you no doubt won't like this very much, but it was the French Revolution that provided a model for the American version. And the French offered alot of support for your cause at the time.

Just giving credit where credit is due, you can refrain from jumping down my throat now.

[HershOstropoler]

"Perhaps when you guys get caught up on that military infrastructure thing..."

If we take Israel/Palestinians, how would that help? As long as the US supports Israel regardless of what Sharon does, Sharon can play the concrete head. The only EU option would be to fund the opposing side with a couple billion per year and military supplies, and that is not an option. Military infrastructure or not.

"For the first time in history, we....the western, democratic world, have the opportunity to ensure democratic liberties for everybody on the planet."

You can't force democracy on people where you lack the basic structures (which were present in Japan and Germany post WW2). I also doubt the current US government has any interest in that.

So while it sounds great, I do not think it would work.

[HershOstropoler]

"but it was the French Revolution that provided a model for the American version"

By timewarp?

[Velociryx]

Wasn't gonna jump down your throat....what I meant to say that we...all of the western world, have arrived at a unique point in history....with the the cold war has ended, and the western world has an opportunity that has never before been seen.

This is a time like no other, and an opportunity we can't afford to miss.

-=Vel=-

[Kropotkin]

Fukuyama anyone?

[DuncanK]

Yes, and I'm sure Bush meant all the patriotic crap that he used in his campaign. The fact is that the US is not very democratic, and never has been. Our nation was not founded on enough good principles. We can never lead the world into utopia until we pick better principles.