What the Eurotwits would like George W. Bush to say

[Velociryx]

HO: I certainly agree with what you're saying, but I contend that you are looking at it from a too-nationalistic point of view.

If the necessary structures to spread Democracy are not yet in place (as they are not in many corners of the world), then we work to build them. The UN could become the most powerful tool we have in keeping the peace while those structures are put in place. Give them time to take root and grow, and then introduce those people to a whole new idea.

Not for the sake of the interests of any one nation, but for the sake of humanity.

Our futures depend on each other.

With the cold war looming, it was impossible to think like that, but no longer.

No longer.

-=Vel=-

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
Fukuyama anyone?

I don't think I could take any more "End of History" drivel.

[Willem]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"but it was the French Revolution that provided a model for the American version"

By timewarp?

OK I'm a little off base there, but the concept's the same.

A lot of the ideas for the early American government came from the French. Benjamin Franklin in particular was very fond of the concepts proposed by the French intellectuals of the time, with Paris being the European hotbed for democratic ideals. In many ways, it was the birthplace of democracy.

And it was the French that gave the US the Statue of Liberty.

[DuncanK]

It would be impossible for capitalism to function in a cooperating manner. Competition and nationalism are a fundamental part of it.

[Kropotkin]

How is nationalism a fundamental part of capitalism?!

[DuncanK]

The capitalist need nationalism to make the people support capitalism. The people see other people as their enemies instead of their own rullers.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK
The capitalist need nationalism to make the people support capitalism. The people see other people as their enemies instead of their own rullers.

I don't see that at all. Capitalism has more to do with consumerism, and it doesn't matter whether a product comes from another nation or from around the block. The only thing that counts is whether the public wants it or not.

[Kropotkin]

How very Lenin of you. However I have to disagree. Nationalism is not a necessity for capitalism. It's a necessity for political leaders in a capitalist society, but that's not the same thing.

[Velociryx]

I agree. 'bout the only thing that capitalism needs in order to take root is private ownership. The competition part tends to take care of itself.

Perhaps you were thinking of protectionistic capitalism?

-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

It's doesn't have so much to do with where the products come from. It's just a basic neccessity for nations who have leaders who oppress their subjects to have percieved enemies other than the leaders themselves. Otherwise the people begin to focus on their domestic enemies.

[Kropotkin]

Ahh you mean the police?

[DuncanK]

The police do the hands on work when it is neccessary.

[Kropotkin]

Capitalists are not the enemy of the people, the capitalists that tries to use the political process and the mass media to make their needs and interests paramount over the needs and interests of the people however, are.

And the police is always the enemy, always.

[DuncanK]

Kropptkin,

Appearently you don't assume that people act in their own self-interest. There aren't many capitalists who care much about the interests of their employees, especially when their interests are at odds (and they usually are).

If you don't think that the police don't consider the welfare of rich people more than poor people you haven't been paying attention. The police are the enemies because of who they work for.

[Velociryx]

Kropotkin, yes, but you could take out the second "capitalist" in your sentence and sub in ANY other word, and it'd still be true.

Even "the milkman that tries to use the political process and the mass media to make their needs and interests paramount over the needs and interests of the people however, are"



-=Vel=-