Torture of detainees by the US?

[Shi Huangdi]

"

That comment is so full of ignorance I see no need to reply."

Then don't. Dismissing arguments based on stupidity was just was you accuse me of beign fallacious on in your dictatorship thread. You are being a hypocrite. The only difference here is your argument on the US dictatorship were dumb enough to warrant being dismissed.

"(And is actually a fallacious arguement - red herring. Of course your so full of fallacious arguements that pointing out one would definately not do justice.) "

This is Apolyton, not formal debate session. If I made one criticism of a European country on a thread about European country, I would immediatly be hit with "oh ya, well the USA did X". Such swipes are very much in order here.

[Dr Strangelove]

The countries they're being sent to for interrogation wouldn't happen to be their home countries would they? Now that would be inhuman!

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
"

That comment is so full of ignorance I see no need to reply."

Then don't. Dismissing arguments based on stupidity was just was you accuse me of beign fallacious on in your dictatorship thread. You are being a hypocrite. The only difference here is your argument on the US dictatorship were dumb enough to warrant being dismissed.

You do have a point, and therefore in response:

If they think of the detainees as martyers, and they think of us as infidels, chances are that this will not weigh in our favor. In fact, it will possibly (with the help of propaganda) make them join the "Holy War" against us.

This is Apolyton, not formal debate session. If I made one criticism of a European country on a thread about European country, I would immediatly be hit with "oh ya, well the USA did X". Such swipes are very much in order here.

Whether its on Apolyton, Civfanatics, Yahoo, in person....its still fallacious.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
If they think of the detainees as martyers, and they think of us as infidels, chances are that this will not weigh in our favor. In fact, it will possibly (with the help of propaganda) make them join the "Holy War" against us.

Regardless of whether the US is or isn't torturing detainees (and I'm skeptical of the arguments that it is), what makes you think that, with all that propoganda, those who end up becoming terrorists are even willing to listen to the US side (or that the US side would even get through that propoganda)? Do you think those who are willing to devote their lives to terrorism do a careful balanced analysis and investigation of the facts of the issue before they become terrorists, or do you think they become terrorists because of the brainwashing propoganda they've recieved all their lives?

[SlowwHand]

Let's just put them up at Jaakko's place and be done with it.
Easy solution.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Edan


Regardless of whether the US is or isn't torturing detainees (and I'm skeptical of the arguments that it is), what makes you think that, with all that propoganda, those who end up becoming terrorists are even willing to listen to the US side (or that the US side would even get through that propoganda)?

I highly doubt anyone with all that propaganda who becomes a terrorist will change their minds.

Do you think those who are willing to devote their lives to terrorism do a careful balanced analysis and investigation of the facts of the issue before they become terrorists, or do you think they become terrorists because of the brainwashing propoganda they've recieved all their lives?

I believe that they go through the facts as they believe them. But thats where the propaganda comes in: It doesn't tell the truth (obviously) so the fact they know probably isn't fact at all.

But are we willing to give these weapons to our enemy? Apparently.....

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by red_jon
Asher - so because they're terrorists, it's OK to treat them like ****, diobeying international law?

The point is that it is not certain that all the detainees in Cuba etc actually all terrorists...

IIRC a few months back several men in their 70's were released and allowed to return to Australia after over a year in which the US authorities could find no evidence of terrorist links.

What is even more frightening is that innocent people are also being subjected to this kind of treatment!

Rather like those innocent people that are sentenced to death and murdered in US jails from time to time...

[Jaakko]

There are also accusations of beatings and withholding of pain medication. And yes, both sleep deprivation and forcing people to stand in uncomfortable positions for extended periods count as torture. Note that this isn't Guantanamo we're talking about, where such things apparently don't happen, but other bases that are off limits to observers (that's the big difference to the debate last time).

According to Americans with direct knowledge and others who have witnessed the treatment, captives are often "softened up" by MPs and U.S. Army Special Forces troops who beat them up and confine them in tiny rooms. The alleged terrorists are commonly blindfolded and thrown into walls, bound in painful positions, subjected to loud noises and deprived of sleep.

Abu Zubaida, who is believed to be the most important al Qaeda member in detention, was shot in the groin during his apprehension in Pakistan in March. National security officials suggested that Zubaida's painkillers were used selectively in the beginning of his captivity. He is now said to be cooperating, and his information has led to the apprehension of other al Qaeda members.

And finally, does anyone honestly think that giving prisoners for others to torture is any different from doing the deed yourself?

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Asher

I lived in a house in a valley in California without air conditioning for two years, I know how exhausting and uncomfortable heat can be.

It's still not torture. By red_jon's logic, the Canadian government is torturing our guards who need to stand outside certain government buildings in those ridiculous costumes and hats, not moving for hours on end in the summer heat.

Wow, you lived in California without air conditioning, yeah that's the same

We are talking about a combination of extreme heat (take a look at the full body suits - there are no gaps or room for cooling) and forced sensory deprivation, simultaniously.

I would say that this counted as severe. The prisoners were also kept in tiny box cages.

If you think this is humane then you obviously have an extremely disturbed mind.

[Solly]

They are from the sandy deserts these types, Red Jon. They are used to the heat.

[red_jon]

Not that kind of heat - in such a confined space it would be stifling.

[Solly]

Aww, poor terrorists.

I don't remember you batting an eyelid when Daniel Pearl was being tortured.

Or perhaps that's because he is American.

[red_jon]

Umm, actually yes I did care about that - but we are comparing one person to a hundred.

Knowing you however, only the white ones matter.

[Solly]

The terrorists are white.

[red_jon]

Umm, no they arent.