Torture of detainees by the US?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't think making people stand in an area for a long time is torture. Furthermore handing them over to other intelligence services (I assume you mean Mossad), means they are engaging in torture, not us.

As for your last edit, I haven't heard that at all. Beatings by MPs and bounding them in painful positions? I can't see that being allowed to occur, and I'll need more proof than one article that it is going on.

[Jaakko]

You're downplaying it Imran. The accusations are about forcing them to stand in painful positions, with sensory deprivation, and with sleep deprivation.
If such treatment is enough to break someone's will then what the hell else could it be except torture? I'm getting shades of newspeak here.

As for the handing the suspects over to be tortured, I really can't understand how you see the US can avoid responsibility. It's tantamount to saying "I didn't tell him to kill that guy officer, I just gave him a gun".
Explicit instructions are not required for someone to be an accomplice in crime.
It's also a violation of international law, http://193.194.138.190/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

From article 3,

1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.

[Ned]

I think we are going about this the wrong way. These guys are men, are they not? They haven't been with a woman for a year. They have sacrificed much for Allah. He owes them time with a beautiful, but pure, lady. Not so?

But they are also Islamic fundamentalists who believe they will go to hell if they see a woman naked.

So, why don't we put a beautiful, but fully clothed stripper in front of one of these Islamic fundamentalists and threaten him with a striptease unless he talks! Better yet, tell him that if he talks he can have her for the whole night, privately.

What do you think will happen? Will the war of human nature vs. the love of Allah tear him apart? Will he talk to avoid the ultimate degredation of seeing the woman naked? Will he talk to be with the woman for the whole night?

Ah, the torture!

[DinoDoc]

This thread demeans real victims of torture.

[Az]

I assume you mean Mossad

why would Mossad take care of Afghani prisoners?
there are also the people of Hamid Kharzai. it will take decades till someone will dig out the bodies.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
This thread demeans real victims of torture.

That's exceptionally low for you, DD.

**** you.

[Demerzel]

Originally posted by Boddington's
The position they are looks no more uncomfortable than the position in which they would pray.

When you are put in the stress position, no position is comfortable. If you try to move to release the pressure on one part of the body, then another bit is strained and that bit is now extremely painful instead. You can release the pressure if you go on your side IIRC but of course as soon as you do that they'll shift you right back into the stress position once again, possibly beating the crap out of you for doing so ( as the Iraqis did to POWs during the gulf war ).

Even with simple body suits causing heat strokes and forced positions, you are torturing the individual. Thrumb screws and the rack are torture but crude torture. Modern day techniques doesn't require you to beat the individual to a pulp to be torture.

What amuses me here is how far some people will go to blindfold themselves to the truth. When pretty much the whole civilised world criticised America for what was happening at Gitmo, still some people ignored it.

Now those same people are saying "Yes of course Bush is right for wanting to attack Iraq & North Korea! He can't be wrong! We are on the side of good, you're either with us or against us! Anyone disagreeing with us must be evil too!"

I love the way that they band people into the us or them category - even someone who disagrees slightly is instantly one of them and thus ignored & in the wrong.

Finally, anyone think Bush is copying other political leaders of the past and using external aggression as a way to distract the American people away from internal problems by misdirecting their attention elsewhere? e.g. Mussolini attacking Ethiopa back in ~1936 ( note : not implying political motive apart from the external aggression one - i.e. not saying Bush fascist ).

[Joseph]

Originally posted by red_jon
Asher - so because they're terrorists, it's OK to treat them like ****, diobeying international law?

Jon these boys would kill you in a second if they had a chance and be happy that they did and you want to treat them as a good O'boys.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Asher

I lived in a house in a valley in California without air conditioning for two years, I know how exhausting and uncomfortable heat can be.

It's still not torture. By red_jon's logic, the Canadian government is torturing our guards who need to stand outside certain government buildings in those ridiculous costumes and hats, not moving for hours on end in the summer heat.

I was born in Modesto and live 10 south until I was 18 without air. It was no big deal.

[Edan]

I was born in Modesto and live 10 south until I was 18 without air. It was no big deal.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Edan

And yes I had to work in the heat also. Cleaning a cow barn, moving hay etc.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Joseph
And yes I had to work in the heat also. Cleaning a cow barn, moving hay etc.

Wow. Although I guess holding your breath for 18 years straight probably prevents getting the smell of the cows.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Edan


Wow. Although I guess holding your breath for 18 years straight probably prevents getting the smell of the cows.

Actually you never smell it because you grow up with it every day. Turlock High did not have air either and in May we would get out at 2:30 instead of 3:10.
I love growing up in the country instead of a city. But hated miking cows, so I went into the service (Navy) and never when back.

[Edan]

Just in case you didn't get my joke, it was that you stated that you lived without air (as apposed to air conditioning)

[Ned]

I think if the Al Qaida were true prisoners of war, we might have a problem with the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisioners of War. Here is the full Art. 17 of that convention, with relevant portions highlighted:

"Article 17

Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information. If he wilfully infringes this rule, he may render himself liable to a restriction of the privileges accorded to his rank or status.

Each Party to a conflict is required to furnish the persons under its jurisdiction who are liable to become prisoners of war, with an identity card showing the owner's surname, first names, rank, army, regimental, personal or serial number or equivalent information, and date of birth. The identity card may, furthermore, bear the signature or the fingerprints, or both, of the owner, and may bear, as well, any other information the Party to the conflict may wish to add concerning persons belonging to its armed forces. As far as possible the card shall measure 6.5 x 10 cm. and shall be issued in duplicate. The identity card shall be shown by the prisoner of war upon demand, but may in no case be taken away from him.

No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.

Prisoners of war who, owing to their physical or mental condition, are unable to state their identity, shall be handed over to the medical service. The identity of such prisoners shall be established by all possible means, subject to the provisions of the preceding paragraph.

The questioning of prisoners of war shall be carried out in a language which they understand."