Venezuelan opposition march

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Ad hominums won't get you out of the evidence produced by alternet, Dino. Deal with the message, not the messanger.

If you take a look at Alternet it is has way less crediblity than the conservative opposite, Townhall. And it is radically leftist.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Fez


If you take a look at Alternet it is has way less crediblity than the conservative opposite, Townhall. And it is radically leftist.

Not that I think Alternet is the paragon of reliable reporting and/or views, but I'm curious what you are basing that statement on. Is it another of your "if I think it's a pack of leftist lies, it is - end of discussion" arguements?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Kontiki


Not that I think Alternet is the paragon of reliable reporting and/or views, but I'm curious what you are basing that statement on. Is it another of your "if I think it's a pack of leftist lies, it is - end of discussion" arguements?

Not trying to start any argument here. I just am not gonna trust Alternet because it doesn't coincide with my own views. If you wanna accept it go ahead and do so.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Fez


Not trying to start any argument here. I just am not gonna trust Alternet because it doesn't coincide with my own views. If you wanna accept it go ahead and do so.

And therein lies one of your biggest problems.

I don't necessarily accept what Alternet says, and obviously it is a left-leaning site. But to just dismiss everything that goes against your personal views is remarkably ingnorant and shows a completely closed mind and unwillingness to learn and grow.

[El León]

Good post. Now that that is out, I believe the NED money to the AFL Venezuela operation should be looked into
The point is, there is alot of US funding to the Venezuelan opposition that was not there before. I've been trying to tell you.
And please behave a little. "It is communist therefore illogical" is not a good argument. I wish to have an informed discussion and instead you're

A: Commie
b: Capitalist
A: Doublecommie
b: Badcapitalist
A: Commie, Commie, Commie
b: Son of Reagan
A: Son of Stalin

Which is quite boring and makes you look like little kids.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Kontiki


And therein lies one of your biggest problems.

NO, no, you are misstating the reality. I did read it but I rolled by eyes as I did. I just thought "uh huh... sure." I did read it however.

I don't necessarily accept what Alternet says, and obviously it is a left-leaning site. But to just dismiss everything that goes against your personal views is remarkably ingnorant and shows a completely closed mind and unwillingness to learn and grow.

Wrong again. If you read my message above you will notice that is completely wrong. I did read it. And am dismissing it, but I did read it. I believe you are the ignorant one and you have problems with learning. I hope you understand this post or I will seriously believe that you have dyslexia.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Can you enlighten us than why are you dismissing it?

Oh you said that already-

I just am not gonna trust Alternet because it doesn't coincide with my own views. If you wanna accept it go ahead and do so.

And that is: to quote Kontiki

But to just dismiss everything that goes against your personal views is remarkably ingnorant and shows a completely closed mind and unwillingness to learn and grow.

And to quote Socrates:

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."

Come on... don't come out with those outlandish statements all the time. I know it might be your style, but still... try to, unless you are a DL having fun. In that case I forgive you

[El León]

Venezuela, Venezuela, please. Stop Fezzing the thread.

[Giancarlo]

OneFoot: I have read the source. So I know your style, accuse me of things that aren't true. Also socrates is not relevant in this. If you want to present irresponsible sources I will read them but will reject them.

[chequita guevara]

The opposition is pushing Venezuela to civil war, the fools.


Well, maybe we commies can get another country out of this after all. As the conservatives overplay they hand, they lose the power to stop a progressive agenda.

Arise, ye victims of starvation!

[OneFootInTheGrave]

To go back to Venezuela

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2002/12/20/financial1215EST0119.DTL

San Francisco Chronicle

Chavez's popularity has plunged since his 1998 election and 2000 re-election, but still enjoys some of the highest approval ratings among Latin American leaders, according to VenEconomy magazine. His base is Venezuela's poor, who comprise 80 percent of its 24 million people.

just quoted the last paragraph, as we know the rest.


next one

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20021220-110405-6515r.htm

Some businesses in anti-Chavez areas closed their doors when the strike began, though the poor, pro-Chavez areas continue to function normally. Now that the strike is in its third week, businesses that initially joined the strike have opened their doors, but are having trouble maintaining inventory. Lines formed as grocery stores and bakeries, where semi-bare shelves and empty refrigerators showed the effects of a 19-day-work stoppage.
The opposition has held marches almost every day of the strike, parading through the streets clad in Venezuela's yellow-blue-and-red patriotic colors and singing popular Venezuelan songs filled out with anti-Chavez lyrics. Each night at 8, opposition sympathizers take to the streets banging pots and pans and shouting. Chavez supporters have similar protests two hours later.
Opposition leaders are demanding that Chavez either resign or call early elections as the country faces an increasing political conflict that has left more than 70 people dead this year. Chavez, a left-wing former paratrooper who led a failed coup in 1992, won landslide elections in 1998 and again in 2000 on a campaign to rebuild the country's institutions and redistribute the country's $50 billion in annual petroleum income.
This has created conflict with the middle and upper classes, which accuse Chavez of dividing the country along class lines and creating hatred between different groups. Lower classes say that Chavez has prioritized in health care and education for the poor, which they say no other president has done.

Don't forget that lower classes constitute 80% of the population so it is not a suprise he won landslide victories twice. However the remaining 20% is still al lot especially as they pretty much control the oil industry.

I am just wandering how did the redistribution of wealth create hatered among classes. Perhaps upper classes don't like to be taxed so much and they hate the lower class even more .

Btw.. the supreme court ordered the strike to stop as well, however the "opposition" refuses.

Some of Chavezes sins

http://www.msnbc.com/news/849768.asp?0cv=NB10

POLARIZING FIGURE
Above and beyond the constitutional issues, the debate in Venezuela revolves around the polarizing figure of Hugo Chavez, the soldier-turned-populist politician who was elected president in 1998.
In a country where at least two-thirds of the population struggles along below the official poverty line, the former paratrooper offered hope of a better future.
Chavez vowed to disassemble the power structure in Venezuela, a lucrative and cozy alliance between the business elite, elements of the military and the Catholic Church and the international oil oligarchy.
He promised jobs and an economic structure that would extend the beneficiaries of Venezuela’s bountiful patrimony, its 77 billion barrels of proven oil reserves.

COURTING CONTROVERSY
Meantime, Chavez also courted controversy with Venezuela’s erstwhile close ally, the United States — a major customer for its oil and once a close ally.
The president showered praise on Cuban leader Fidel Castro, his best friend in the region, while paying respects to two other Washington foes, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and Libyan leader Moammar Ghadaffi, during state visits in 2000.
Moreover, Chavez broke with the regional consensus by publicly fraternizing with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, the leftist group that has been designated a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department.
Overall, his behavior has shaped a U.S. stance that has progressed from quiet tolerance to undisguised animosity under the administration of President Bush.

In April, Washington was accused of abandoning its democratic principles by swiftly heralding a new Venezuelan leadership created by a coup. Chavez was reinstalled after the takeover collapsed.
And this month, the White House appeared to side with the opposition by calling for early elections in Venezuela.

Of course the opposition says they are concerned about the economy. - However they cannot wait until next elections (as if Chavez is not going to give them) - at teh moment there he accepts a referendum in August 2003, so too long to wait. The economy will collapse until than? Don't think so.

and a Pakistani link

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_15-12-2002_pg4_2

“If we have to bring in technicians from other countries, they will come,” said Chavez, whose government is under intense pressure from a 12-day-old general strike staged in support of demands for his resignation. The leftist-populist president said he would not hesitate to fire 80 percent of managers and technical staff of Petroleos de Venezuela if that proves necessary to jumpstart the stalled state oil company.

[El León]

Chávez left-wing? That says alot about the Washington Post's "journalism." Anybody can report a news story, clearly, but not everybody understands what the heck they write about.

And Che, you have a point. They can just keep pushing. Castro was not a communist at the beginning, but with enough proding and pushing, they forced him into a corner...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The opposition is pushing Venezuela to civil war, the fools.


Well, maybe we commies can get another country out of this after all. As the conservatives overplay they hand, they lose the power to stop a progressive agenda.

Arise, ye victims of starvation!

You commies can destroy countries, not fix them.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave

I am just wandering how did the redistribution of wealth create hatered among classes. Perhaps upper classes don't like to be taxed so much and they hate the lower class even more .

Isn't that self-explanatory? The redistribution of wealth necessarily means that those who have it will have to give some of it up to those that don't. That's obviously not a very popular thing to do among the wealthy, and the fact that the poor support a leader who has said he wants to do this will of course cause tensions between the two groups.

I fear a civil war is creeping closer to inevitability....

[Adam Smith]

Wasn't this strike precipitated, in large part, by the fact that Chavez ordered the national oil company to sell oil to Cuba at cut rates? (See BBC quote below) Since the oil company provides something like one third of governemnt revenues, that puts a crimp in what Venezeula can spend on social services.

El Leon:
1. Please note the difference between the Washington Times and the Washington Post.
2. Please note that the Pakistani cite also referred to Cahvez as left-wing.
3. The BBC also refers to Chavez in the same terms.

Only last July, the leftist leader's supporters were out celebrating his re-election in the streets of Caracas, but by April 2002 the whole country was embroiled in a general strike.

This admirer of Fidel Castro's Cuba and avowed anti-globalist was pushed from office on 12 April - as a result of his attempts to take control of the world's fifth-biggest oil industry.