Rugby - Last Feet!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
You are right - the Cup is perhaps now one competition too many. It does give teams other than Glaws and Tigers a chance at silver and a visit to HQ however - so on the whole I think I would like to see it stay.

Rotherham should have come up to the top flight last season but shameful politics kept them down. They are again dominating their league this year and must come up. Exeter have nowhere near the same resources so they have done exceptionally well to have a good run.

A-ha. So it was Rotheram who were denied entry to the top division on the basis that their facilities weren't up to scratch. I knew someone had been. Sounded to me at the time like the Big Boys getting together to keep themselves exclusive.

The top flight clubs come in in the fourth round proper - and that was the last round in December.

A-ha. So it's not quite the same as the FA Cup, where everyone's in the mix from the outset. Probably fair enough, in a sense, because it lets the smaller clubs advance, benefiting from the experience and, perhaps more importantly, income they wouldn't otherwise see.

One of the appeals of the FA Cup is the ongoing possibility - and it happens often - that an early round match can see a minnow knock out a shark. It would be unlikely to happen in the Powergen Cup - if it were all in from the outset - because of the fundamental differences between rugby and s*****. One freak split-second resulting in a goal can decide a s***** match. Not so in rugby.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Well I suppose you lot have to talk about something while we wait for the Super 12.

I can't wait! It's slightly troubling, though, that with the very early start to the S12 season due to the WRC, games played here are going to take place at the tail-end of summer. It can still be very very hot.

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Results of interest to a couple of posters in this thread:

Powergen Cup QFs:

Gloucester v Saracens 51-20

Nice rebound from the Munster debacle. Which, incidentally, I watched in replay yesterday. I don't think Gloucester turned up at Munster with any plan actually to win the match. And they paid the price. That's not to sell Munster short - they played great rugby - but I haven't seen such a tactically bankrupt effort from a top team for a long time. Not to mention the ineptitude in the set pieces. Serves them right. Gee, that Munster half is a good boy.

Bath v Northampton 29-30

Gee, the Saints are an in-and-out proposition.

Harlequins v Leicester 12-19

Bit of a struggle from what I read.

[Tamerlin]

Some French Championship results :

Montauban 18 - Castres Olympique 17
Béziers 9 - USA Perpignan 34
Bègles 20 - Montferrand 20
Pau 16 - Agen 18
Mont de Marsan 15 - Narbonne 15
Colomiers 18 - Stade Toulousain 38
Biarritz 22 - Stade Français 5

The SU Agen Lot-et-Garonne is already qualified for the next H-Cup as it will end first of pool number 2, the Stade Toulousain can no more catch up the SU Agen LG and will certainly end the first phase at the 2nd place of this pool.

[LDiCesare]

It's really a shame Agen wasn't allowed to play the H cup this year.
Now, with a bit of luck I'll play some real rugby next week. It'll be time to see if I have recovered from the end-of-year dinners (maybe running at the training sessions will have helped, maybe not...)

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Colomiers 18 - Stade Toulousain 38

The SU Agen Lot-et-Garonne is already qualified for the next H-Cup

What are the criteria for H-Cup qualification?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
What are the criteria for H-Cup qualification?

The first team in every pool is automatically qualified for the following H-Cup. The other qualified teams are those playing the 1/2 finals.

[finbar]

[Havak]

Are you trying to wind me up?

It wasn't a struggle at all. Quins were never in the game and only some truly inept refereeing kept the scores even close. More on this in a later post as there is plenty to mention - including a brilliant try from a Jonno charge down that was disallowed because a certain frenchman was having fisticuffs 80 metres off the ball!!

Don't read too much into the Glaws score - Saracens put a second XV out and even their first XV can't match Glaws at Kingsholm.

Now the tractors face a real acid test - they have to play Tigers at Franklins in the semi. Away from the shed I think we can handle them.

It also occured to me over the weekend to wonder how clubs like Glaws can possibly be viable - 8500 cram into their ground, we can only just make a profit getting 17000 every game. They must be losing money even with the dodgy deal that has the RFU paying for Paul?

[Havak]

As for referees well I brought in on myself didn't I? Having priased Chris White as one of our best how typical that in the two games I have seen him helm for us since he returned from the Tri-series he seems to have turned into a Hoeniss.

The truly amusing part for the SH lads is that he hasn't become an SH type ref since he helmed those big games but instead seems to have tightened into an ultra conservative NH stereotype - he is now whistle happy and excessively technical.

I found several aspects of Saturdays performance by the man strange. He sin binned Moody for 'going of his feet' in a quite bizarre moment where Lewis had clearly been bulldozed over by an opposition player entering the ruck. The disallowed try was infuriating mainly as the touch judge made the call not the referee - the incidents is off the ball so you let the score stand and card the player surely? But even then I felt the Quins prop started it so to poing us felt a little unfair anyway. Five seconds later Vos takes our fly half around the chin and nothing is done. Sheesh.

He got better - right at the end we have an attacking scrum under their posts. Their loose head is fading looking for the free kick if the ref thinks we are pushing too early. The ref resets the scrum, our tight head (Tournaire was off by then and Golly was on) points out what is happening to Mr White who says "calm down" and on Golly saying "but sir..." he gives them a penalty for our back chat!

Can you imagine any S-12 side coping with a ref as pedantic as that?

Truly an awful performance. I hope Glaws get him next home game.

Vos received poetic justice by the way - he neck tackled Martin Corry late on which is never a good idea as the guy is huge and fast - Vos did a nice backwards aerial roll as he failed to keep his grip on the neck.

[Tamerlin]

I remember Mr. Hoeniss' name being associated with a terrible performance but I can't remember the circumstances.

Franck Tournaire is what we call a "mule" (which can also be said "mulet" in France), tease him and he punches you to the greatest satisfaction of the players from the opposing team who can roll on the ground screaming and so on...

Huuh, me? He is almost trying the innocent face trick but it never works as he has the same face as the bad guy in a Tex Avery's cartoon.

About the H-Cup and the french teams, if a team that is already qualified because it ended first of its pool reaches the half-finals, another team that has played the fourth-finals and has been eliminated is selected thanks to his results, the number of tries scored in the fourth final, the final ranking in the pool, and so on...

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


I can't wait! It's slightly troubling, though, that with the very early start to the S12 season due to the WRC, games played here are going to take place at the tail-end of summer. It can still be very very hot.

Perhaps this will give the Waratahs an edge over Auckland on the 21st. I imagine the Australian players would be more used to the heat. In any case, I'm saving it as an excuse in case my team loses.

[Havak]

Tamerlin - Mr Hoeniss name is associated with nothing but bad performances. I seem to remember he may have recently helmed the Ireland-Wallabies game?

You have Mr Tournaire completely right. Great player but discipline is a real major problem for him.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Are you trying to wind me up?

Me? Never! I was going on a written report. Probably written by a Celt.

Don't read too much into the Glaws score - Saracens put a second XV out and even their first XV can't match Glaws at Kingsholm.

Fair enough.

Now the tractors face a real acid test - they have to play Tigers at Franklins in the semi. Away from the shed I think we can handle them.

If Gloucester turn up with anything like the attitude they took with them to Munster, you're a shoe-in. It will be interesting to see.

It also occured to me over the weekend to wonder how clubs like Glaws can possibly be viable - 8500 cram into their ground, we can only just make a profit getting 17000 every game. They must be losing money even with the dodgy deal that has the RFU paying for Paul?

Presumably Gloucester survives on sponsorship. If so, it's a terribly precarious way to exist. Dependence on outside income is a real trap. Look at the traumas happening in the lower leagues of English s***** with the collapse of broadcaster who was supposed to be the fiscal saviour. God, I hate the corporatisation of this and so many other games.

BTW, has Henry Paul ever actually done anything to earn his RFU money? Like played for England? Which, I assume, was the original intention? He was like a rank amateur at fullback against Munster. The mystery is why he was left in the position. The commentators were suggesting rejigging the defence early-ish in the second half. Nothing happened.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
As for referees well I brought in on myself didn't I? Having priased Chris White as one of our best how typical that in the two games I have seen him helm for us since he returned from the Tri-series he seems to have turned into a Hoeniss.

The truly amusing part for the SH lads is that he hasn't become an SH type ref since he helmed those big games but instead seems to have tightened into an ultra conservative NH stereotype - he is now whistle happy and excessively technical.

Do refs change their style by choice? Or is it unconscious? Or has there been direction? I wonder.

The disallowed try was infuriating mainly as the touch judge made the call not the referee - the incidents is off the ball so you let the score stand and card the player surely? But even then I felt the Quins prop started it so to poing us felt a little unfair anyway.

Interesting question whether the try should have stood. I think I agree with you. I had a quick look at the Laws to see what they say on the matter but couldn't find any reference to this situation. I'll have a longer look when I get time. The fact that the Quins prop started it probably isn't relevant - retaliation is a sin as well.

Five seconds later Vos takes our fly half around the chin and nothing is done. Sheesh.

Mmmm. Classic inconsistency. We've batted this one around before. Ref inconsistency is - in all parts of the game - is one of our greatest problems.

He got better - right at the end we have an attacking scrum under their posts. Their loose head is fading looking for the free kick if the ref thinks we are pushing too early. The ref resets the scrum, our tight head (Tournaire was off by then and Golly was on) points out what is happening to Mr White who says "calm down" and on Golly saying "but sir..." he gives them a penalty for our back chat!

Can you imagine any S-12 side coping with a ref as pedantic as that?

Sounds like classic case of a pedantic NH ref to me! I'd've thought the penalty only justified if this were the latest in a stream of questioning of the ref and - most importantly - a warning had been issued. I assume that wasn't the case. It's a very odd transformation for Chris White, because on the occasions I've seen him, he struck me as a sensible, consistent ref with good player management skills.