Rugby - Last Feet!

[Tamerlin]

As far as I can remember Mr White's name is not associated with good performances.

[Havak]

Well I have to start by saying I think the thread will appreciate this. A bizarre cross code challenge took place last night between Sale (Union) and St Helens (L*****). One half was played to either codes laws. Sale won by a slim margin of 41-39.

But I have to share this whining quote from the L***** coach with you all.

"There were a lot of things we would have liked to have done in union but we didn't have the ball,"

Competition for the ball eh? What a shame!

If Gloucester turn up with anything like the attitude they took with them to Munster, you're a shoe-in. It will be interesting to see.

Despite the dip in form we are still a big game side. If they turn up in that frame of mind we will destroy them I suspect.

Great cup draws for us all round – Munster in Europe and Glaws in the domestic. If we are to win either it will be the hard way!

Presumably Gloucester survives on sponsorship. If so, it's a terribly precarious way to exist

Sponsorship and the RFU TV money hand out I suspect – so your point about Soccer is well made indeed. It is the proverbial house of cards situation.

Like played for England? Which, I assume, was the original intention? He was like a rank amateur at fullback against Munster

He played at 12 against Tigers and looked equally inept. He has shone in Sevens – the space to operate brings out the best in him. He has appeared for England – most notably (and I can see Tamerlin smiling already) as a replacement in Paris last year where he looked his usual fish out of water self.

I’m actually against the way the RFU pay for him and Robinson to be honest. Without that sub from them only one club could afford them (or maybe not)

Or has there been direction? I wonder.

A combination perhaps? I think we have said before all refs have clearly been told to be strict on releasing the ball this season – sometimes it is insanely quick how they blow up now.

retaliation is a sin as well.

You know me and my rose tinted spectacles. I don’t think the laws are clear ad I’m always suspicious of refs discretion on such things – White did not even see the incident himself so to then be ultra harsh seems, well, rather harsh.

You are right about inconsistency but I’m not sure if it can ever be solved?

To be fair to Mr White I think there had been a string of questioning from non-Captains. As you know our captain asks for clarification of every decision. But no warning had been issued certainly.

on the occasions I've seen him, he struck me as a sensible, consistent ref with good player management skills.

I agree. I’ve rated him perhaps the best English ref and said so before in these threads. But he is only human – maybe he just had off days the last two times I saw him.

It’s not sour grapes – we won both games I saw him helm for us after all.

I could have accepted Tournaire being red carded for his stupidity in having a stand up fight – but it grated that a beautiful try (from Jonno charging down the fly halves kick no less) should be disallowed for an off the ball scuffle. Is this a mans game or what?

I take it Mr White has helmed several games for France then?

[ravagon]

quote:
"There were a lot of things we would have liked to have done in union but we didn't have the ball,"

LMAO!
That's one to file away.

I could have accepted Tournaire being red carded for his stupidity in having a stand up fight – but it grated that a beautiful try (from Jonno charging down the fly halves kick no less) should be disallowed for an off the ball scuffle. Is this a mans game or what?

Heh heh. Not having seen the incident in question (or the match either come to that) perhaps I shouldn't judge, but I have to ask whether or not you would have been similarly mortified had the "try" scorer been someone else?
(The "J" word may call thine neutrality into question where any other might not ).

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Competition for the ball eh? What a shame!

Is that the first time such a game has been played? I seem to recall something like it before, or talk of same. Maybe it was talked about here. I'd've liked to have seen the game, too, just to see how the L***** lads cope with rugby. I wouldn't have thought the rugby lads would've had much trouble with L*****. Five hit-ups, kick. Five hit-ups, kick. Maybe the rugby props would've had trouble counting to 5, but I'm sure one of their teammates could've levered open the cauliflowers and whispered the tackle count.

To be fair to Mr White I think there had been a string of questioning from non-Captains. As you know our captain asks for clarification of every decision. But no warning had been issued certainly.

There are questions in every game. A warning - usually more than one - precedes a penalty.

but it grated that a beautiful try (from Jonno charging down the fly halves kick no less) should be disallowed

Methinks my little pact with God finally paid off.

I take it Mr White has helmed several games for France then?

Actually, I think he reffed one of the French Tests out here last season. I seem to recall. I'll have to check.

[vulture]

Originally posted by finbar


Is that the first time such a game has been played? I seem to recall something like it before, or talk of same.

A couple of years ago, there was a couple of cross-code games. Bath played Wigan in two matches - one league, the other real rugby. IIRC Wigan won the league encounter by a long way, and Bath won the union match by a smaller margin. There may have been a few other games as well. I think the Middlesex sevens tournament has at least one league team entering each year, but the difference between sevens and league is somewhat less.

Maybe it was talked about here. I'd've liked to have seen the game, too, just to see how the L***** lads cope with rugby. I wouldn't have thought the rugby lads would've had much trouble with L*****. Five hit-ups, kick. Five hit-ups, kick. Maybe the rugby props would've had trouble counting to 5, but I'm sure one of their teammates could've levered open the cauliflowers and whispered the tackle count.

The problem union players have in league is that you have to get back ten meters after the tackle. Without the habit of doing that automatically after every tackle (and then coming back up to make the tackle), they tend to be much slower getting back than the league players, who tend to make much more ground between each tackle as a consequence. Plus the league guys have more practice at all the tricks for keeping a tackled player on the floor a little bit longer to give their guys more time (and know when to commit professional fouls in that area to save the try) - they'll better know what the referee will let them get away with.

The fitness required is also different. Much of the time in league is spent running backwards and forwards ten meters, which wears union players out very quickly. League forwards don't have the endurance (or technique) needed for rucks, mauls and scrums, and can be driven into the mud by a well organised union pack.

It's all very well knowing that you have 5 tackles, and then kick the ball away (or occasionally go for it on the 6th tackle), but unless you play league a lot you aren't going to have the instincts of just how much of a risk to take in any given situation. The good players in any code know how to squeeze the last bit of advantage out of a situation, and that kind of instinctive knowledge can't be transferred between codes at all - you have to build up a new 'database' more or less from scratch.

[finbar]

Originally posted by vulture
A couple of years ago, there was a couple of cross-code games. Bath played Wigan in two matches - one league, the other real rugby. IIRC Wigan won the league encounter by a long way, and Bath won the union match by a smaller margin. There may have been a few other games as well. I think the Middlesex sevens tournament has at least one league team entering each year, but the difference between sevens and league is somewhat less.

It must have been the Bath-Wigan games I heard about.

The problem union players have in league is that you have to get back ten meters after the tackle. Without the habit of doing that automatically after every tackle (and then coming back up to make the tackle), they tend to be much slower getting back than the league players, who tend to make much more ground between each tackle as a consequence. Plus the league guys have more practice at all the tricks for keeping a tackled player on the floor a little bit longer to give their guys more time (and know when to commit professional fouls in that area to save the try) - they'll better know what the referee will let them get away with.

The fitness required is also different. Much of the time in league is spent running backwards and forwards ten meters, which wears union players out very quickly. League forwards don't have the endurance (or technique) needed for rucks, mauls and scrums, and can be driven into the mud by a well organised union pack.

It's all very well knowing that you have 5 tackles, and then kick the ball away (or occasionally go for it on the 6th tackle), but unless you play league a lot you aren't going to have the instincts of just how much of a risk to take in any given situation. The good players in any code know how to squeeze the last bit of advantage out of a situation, and that kind of instinctive knowledge can't be transferred between codes at all - you have to build up a new 'database' more or less from scratch.

You're right, the physical demands are very different, but on a one-off basis, I'd've thought the less complex 13-man game an (as it were) easier proposition. Certainly the guys here who have played both suggest that. But on a one-off basis, everyone's going to struggle with the unfamiliar other code. There's so much bad blood between the codes here that the likelihood of a combined match here is remote. Pity. It would be interesting to see.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Actually, I think he reffed one of the French Tests out here last season. I seem to recall. I'll have to check.

If this is the case, Mr White could be responsible for one of the most appalling refereeing performance I have seen for years.

[Havak]

would have been similarly mortified had the "try" scorer been someone else?

I’ve never been one to hide my bias.

But J didn’t score the try. He charged a kick down in our half, picked and carried maybe ten metres then offloaded to our winger who in turn passed to the nippy little scrummy who sprinted under the posts. The entire move went over half the length of the field, J would struggle with that.

Vulture got it – Wigan and Bath contested a pointless couple of games five years ago. His memory of it is a little, um, more kind to the 13 code than mine would be. After all at the time (1998) most of Wigan were deserters from Union and none of Bath had experience of 13s (this is just after Union went Pro).

Add to this that Bath were by then past their prime (Newcastle or Tigers were the form teams by then) and the match made no sense.

Lasts nights means little either – though it is interesting to note that a fairly average Union side beat arguably the best L***** side in the UK for the last decade don’t you think.

I’m not buying the fitness thing either. Five years ago maybe, now I suspect Union is getting superior in that regard. Scrums, rucks and mauls can sap more energy than an awful lot of ten metre cycling can to my mind.

If this is the case, Mr White could be responsible for one of the most appalling refereeing performance I have seen for years.

Three weeks away from the big game and the entente cordiale is cracking I see?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
Three weeks away from the big game and the entente cordiale is cracking I see?

The entente cordiale can in no way be extended to a bad referee.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
But J didn’t score the try. He charged a kick down in our half, picked and carried maybe ten metres then offloaded to our winger who in turn passed to the nippy little scrummy who sprinted under the posts. The entire move went over half the length of the field, J would struggle with that.

A-ha! I was also under the distinct impression that J**** had scored the try! Your cunningly worded posts as follows -

a beautiful try (from Jonno charging down the fly halves kick no less)

and

including a brilliant try from a Jonno charge down that was disallowed

- were obviously designed to create the impression that it was J****'s lumbering frame that thundered half the length of the field to crash to earth over the try line. Your ploy has been exposed, Havak!

I’m not buying the fitness thing either. Five years ago maybe, now I suspect Union is getting superior in that regard. Scrums, rucks and mauls can sap more energy than an awful lot of ten metre cycling can to my mind.

I have no doubt rugby players are much fitter these days than before and that scrums, rucks and mauls sap energy. But from my limited knowledge of bio-mechanics (or whatever the word is), different forms of exertion do place different demands on various kinds of fitness. If you don't train your body for, say, 10 metre recycling, you'll struggle, regardless of your overall fitness. Just out of interest, Havak, what was your favourite routine at training in your tight-head days?

Three weeks away from the big game and the entente cordiale is cracking I see?

Vive la cracking!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


The entente cordiale

This is, presumably, some kind of flavoured water-based refreshment?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Vive la cracking!

Expect the cracking to close itself instantaneously as soon as the Southern Hemisphere is concerned.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
This is, presumably, some kind of flavoured water-based refreshment?

Wine-based of course!

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar

I wouldn't have thought the rugby lads would've had much trouble with L*****. Five hit-ups, kick. Five hit-ups, kick. Maybe the rugby props would've had trouble counting to 5, but I'm sure one of their teammates could've levered open the cauliflowers and whispered the tackle count.

The only difficulty I can think of is that the rugby team wouldn't have to release the ball in the tackle ... ... ... Actually, depending on the team involved, this might not have been a problem at all.

Wine-based of course!

Is there another kind allowed in France?

[Tamerlin]

Is there another kind allowed in France?