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  • #76
    The point is that keeping the huge base filled with a bunch of loud mouthed drunks (or so they appear if you go near Itaewon when they unleash them on the neighbourhood) in the middle of Seoul is not a military necessity or real strategic benefit for South Korea.

    It is, of course, nice for the US military in larger geopolitics, since it gives them yet another colonial base to encircle the world with.

    The North Korean army is even more outdated than the Iraqis. If they launched a major attack, many would defect.

    Second, the South Korean Army IS highly trained, motivated, and well equiped, and is backed up by some pretty fair and sophisticated industrial muscle. Although of course they'd expect US air support, they don't really need the 40 000 dudes for much except symbolism.

    Many Koreans are coming to suspect that what the base symbolizes is not an 'equal alliance', but a vassal or protectorate relationship.

    Second Point, thoughts on the recent deaths:
    -One, the attitude to the law and legal system here is such that they are OUTRAGED that a (possible) crime commited against Koreans in Korea was not tried by a Korean court, but a US military court. This is the big thing.
    -The US perspective: letting them go to Korean court would be sacrificing them. Koreans don't do jury trials, they do beat and treat 'harshly' suspects.

    The third, and most important point, is one that you have to be here to get. It's vague and in the air. Korea is changing. The World Cup was not just a sports event here, it was a focus for a new upwelling of nationalism, a very powerful tide sweeping the countries youth. It is not really understood by the more passive Old Korea, but having seen the riots, talked to the police and conscripts, this new tide could go any where, find any target. I strongly suggest that America not make itself anymore of a target by parading drunken fools through the middle of Seoul looking for fights and hookers.

    Note: todays paper Joong Ang Il-Bo---> protestors firebomb a US base.
    "Wait a minute..this isn''t FAUX dive, it's just a DIVE!"
    "...Mangy dog staggering about, looking vainly for a place to die."
    "sauna stories? There are no 'sauna stories'.. I mean.. sauna is sauna. You do by the laws of sauna." -P.

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    • #77
      Seeker, Why are you threatening the United States? Do you really want US troops to withdraw and for the US to sever military support?
      http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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      • #78
        The World Cup was not just a sports event here, it was a focus for a new upwelling of nationalism, a very powerful tide sweeping the countries youth. It is not really understood by the more passive Old Korea, but having seen the riots, talked to the police and conscripts, this new tide could go any where, find any target.


        This is great news for the region, as East Asia desperately needs another belligerent, hyper-nationalistic power. The prospects for regional war are too low right now; crank up those tensions, Korean youth.

        Seriously though, America needs to get the hell out of Asia before the whole region goes up in flames. Get our boys out of there so we can watch and laugh when the "world power" that is Korea gets a little mouthy and ends up under the Chinese boot. I don't want to fight World War III protecting a nation that is too stupid to appreciate our protection.
        KH FOR OWNER!
        ASHER FOR CEO!!
        GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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        • #79
          Seeker: Don't they know that the North is one serious fvcked up place? This won't be Germany reuniting. It will be a barely third world country reuniting with a first world country. It's going to break the bank for 20 or 30 years, and will be a substantial problem for a significant period of time afterward.
          Last edited by DanS; December 10, 2002, 16:45.
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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          • #80
            -One, the attitude to the law and legal system here is such that they are OUTRAGED that a (possible) crime commited against Koreans in Korea was not tried by a Korean court, but a US military court. This is the big thing.
            That is kind of outragous.

            The third, and most important point, is one that you have to be here to get. It's vague and in the air. Korea is changing.
            I was like the "it's a (insert race, creed, nation, or sex her) thing" as a reason. You know, it just dosen't work for me.

            I think Korea has just gotten really full of themselves since CIVIII made them a civilization. Yeah, that's it.

            I say pull out, and everyone will be happy. Right?
            Monkey!!!

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            • #81
              Seeker, Why are you threatening the United States?

              I'm not.

              Do you really want US troops to withdraw

              Yes.

              and for the US to sever military support?

              No.
              "Wait a minute..this isn''t FAUX dive, it's just a DIVE!"
              "...Mangy dog staggering about, looking vainly for a place to die."
              "sauna stories? There are no 'sauna stories'.. I mean.. sauna is sauna. You do by the laws of sauna." -P.

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              • #82
                Well I can't see why Bush should apologize. I can't see why he couldn't do that either, nothing humiliating in that IMO. If they want it so bad, why not, it's free, and apparently it's their custom. Yes, the US is not Asia, but it happened IN Asia.

                I like to do things in countries own way when I'm in it.
                If I'm in Asia, then I apologize. If I'm in Finland, I just give them a cold stare.

                I thought it was rude in our independece day when president hosted a gathering and there were all these important guests. There comes the embassador of Iran, and the man does NOT shake our presidents hand, but goes to her husband and shakes his hand (it's a big line where all the guests shake their hands before going in). His wife however shakes presidents hand too (she's woman). I don't know if it's Iranian custom not to shake womens hands, but for foox sake he is guest in this country, and she is the president and it's official happening and important one. Shake the damn hand!
                If I come to Iran, and it's custom that men don't shake womens hands, I don't shake them!
                In da butt.
                "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Ned


                  I think it clearly time to pull our army out and turn South Korea over to the North.
                  Thats just typical dumb american response. We think we are doing them good and get all pissy when the koreans are complaining. Look it seems as they dont like our presence. Just withdraw. Don't act all cocky and try to look like we are all righteous and doing them a favor.

                  America: "Hey eat this cake its great!"
                  Korea: "No way, Im not eating it."
                  America: "WTF? You'll starve! Just eat it you ungrateful f---"
                  Korea: "I'll feed myself go away"
                  America: "WTF, fine Im gonna stay here until I see you eat it"

                  If they dont like us, Why do we waste our time? and why do we force it on them?
                  :-p

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Pekka
                    Well I can't see why Bush should apologize. I can't see why he couldn't do that either, nothing humiliating in that IMO. If they want it so bad, why not, it's free, and apparently it's their custom. Yes, the US is not Asia, but it happened IN Asia.

                    I like to do things in countries own way when I'm in it.
                    If I'm in Asia, then I apologize. If I'm in Finland, I just give them a cold stare.
                    Well, when in Rome...


                    Like I said its the immaturity on BOTH sides. Being a by product of both nation, I really see clearly how stupid two of them are acting. If two nation were a kid I'd smack em so hard.
                    :-p

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                    • #85
                      Heh, I agree. It seems 'a bit' funny, I do agree that someone should send apologizes. Maybe those who drove the vehicle, signed by commander. It's ok to say we're sorry if accident happens. But to ask that Bush apologizes.. well that's little different.
                      But someone should apologize.
                      In da butt.
                      "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                      THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                      "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        America: "Hey eat this cake its great!"
                        Korea: "No way, Im not eating it."
                        America: "WTF? You'll starve! Just eat it you ungrateful f---"
                        Korea: "I'll feed myself go away"
                        America: "WTF, fine Im gonna stay here until I see you eat it"




                        Look it seems as they dont like our presence. Just withdraw."

                        Never so easy. Looks like they're divided over the issue--some want us there, some don't, some want us there one day but not the other. Here's a funny article that illustrates.



                        The US is being accused of aiding the conservative candidate by having our ambassador meet him and accept a request by him for Bush to apologize personally for the driver running over the two girls. According to the gov't candidate, the US was being duped into the meeting, which was meant to show his independence from the US.
                        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                        • #87
                          Whether Koreans want us there or not, we should withdraw. We have no business there, and we never did.
                          Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
                          Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Calc II


                            Thats just typical dumb american response. We think we are doing them good and get all pissy when the koreans are complaining. Look it seems as they dont like our presence. Just withdraw. Don't act all cocky and try to look like we are all righteous and doing them a favor.

                            America: "Hey eat this cake its great!"
                            Korea: "No way, Im not eating it."
                            America: "WTF? You'll starve! Just eat it you ungrateful f---"
                            Korea: "I'll feed myself go away"
                            America: "WTF, fine Im gonna stay here until I see you eat it"

                            If they dont like us, Why do we waste our time? and why do we force it on them?
                            The last time we withdrew, the North invaded and overran the South. Why do you think it would be any different this time?

                            Seeker, Our presence on the DMZ keeps the peace. If we withdraw at SK's request and war starts, I doubt we would help. Look to your ally Japan.
                            http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Ned
                              The last time we withdrew, the North invaded and overran the South. Why do you think it would be any different this time?
                              45 years of training and equipping the South Koreans.


                              But anyways, the US troops are not really there because of North Korea, or at least that's not the main reason. The US needs to maintain bases on the Asian mainland for global political reasons. The bases are a threat/deterrent against China and Russia.

                              The bases would serve as a jump off point for invading/defending different areas in the East Asia region (read Taiwan).

                              If the US pulls out of South Korea, it would be under pressure to pull out of Japan.

                              Besides, you need bases all over the world if you want to be a global empire, I mean superpower.
                              Golfing since 67

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                              • #90
                                We'd still have Japan.

                                I don't think we need to think of pulling out yet. The government is still predominantly pro-American, and the consequences of Korea being forcibly re-unified by the North are rather frightening - if the whole peninsula became a potential staging area for their nuclear missiles, they'd be a lot harder to stop.
                                Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.

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