Asian Apologies

[chequita guevara]

I met an Army dude who sliced and diced a German prostitute, and Reagan didn't have to apologize when he was caught. He was a friend of someone I went to college with. Didn't know he was a budding serial killer at the time.

[GePap]

Times have changed. If this accident had happened in 1989, no one in KOrea would have said a peep about it. Today, it is somewhat ahrd to jsutify US military precense in North east asia. S.Korea and Japan are persuing policies of peace towards the only two significant threats, China and N.Korea, and Japan and S.Korea are strong and rich enough to handle such threats without the US anyway.

I doubt bases in Italy and germany are as close to heavily populated regions as in these places. after all, the command complex for US forces in S.Korea is right in the middle of downtown Seou, a metropolitan region of 14 million.

[DanS]

"no one in KOrea would have said a peep about it"

I bet they would have. But I do agree that times have changed.

"Today, it is somewhat ahrd to jsutify US military precense in North east asia."

That's ridiculous. You've got a country that is about ready to implode, while having 1/10th of its populace under arms. It's a freakin' powder keg.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by GePap
I doubt bases in Italy and germany are as close to heavily populated regions as in these places. after all, the command complex for US forces in S.Korea is right in the middle of downtown Seou, a metropolitan region of 14 million.

Most of the ones that I was on were right there in population centers. Step outside the gate and you were in town.

[DanS]

I remember the cable car incident/accident in Italy that made the sh!t hit the fan. Don't think they demanded an apology by the President, although perhaps somebody could set me right in that regard. I think the Italians focused on the cavalier attitude wrt the rules, which is entirely fair.

[GePap]

"utsde of town" and right inside downtown Megalopolis are two different things. I lived in a city damn close to significant US bases (Panama City Panama) and you did not see that sigificant a US precense, or hear that may overflights even though some of the bigest air-bases in the world at the time were in the Canal Zone. So there is a significan difference.

S.Korea's army is far more powerful than the N.Korean army. We have 37,000 toopr there,. They have an army of 600,000 men, far better equiped and tranied than the 1,000,000 N.Korean army. They have a far greater economy, including making their own equipment, and a signifanclty bigger populartion. And S.Koreans expect N.Korean nukes to be headed for Tokyo, which produces no tears from them. So, No, S, Korea does not need US help to beat N.Korea in a conventional war.

[David Floyd]

Further, GePap, South Korea possesses far more significant reserves than does North Korea. If you include all reserves, the figure is something like 4 million for South Korea vs. under 2 million for North Korea.

[The Vagabond]

This Asian tradition of making apologies all the time is cool. I like it. It's also considered rather normal for a man to shed tears (a lot of tears, in fact) in front of his collegues as an act of his sincere apology.

[Drake Tungsten]

I think this has more to do with Confucian concepts of shame and group responsibility that anything else. East Asian societies are much more concerned with hierarchy than American society and tend to see things in terms of groups, not individuals.

In this case, the truck drivers commited a terrible act and are being blamed for it. In America, we would place the blame solely on the truck drivers and leave it at that. East Asians, however, tend to place the blame on the entire group responsible. To them, the truck drivers not only brought shame upon themselves; they brought shame upon their entire group, the U.S. military in this case. Bush, as Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. military, is ultimately responsible for all actions committed by his subordinates, regardless of how far down the chain of command they are. Bush is supposed to feel shamed by the actions of the truck drivers and should want to apologize for their actions.

Of course, this type of thinking is completely foreign to Americans, so the Korean demands seem unreasonable. In their proper cultural context, however, they aren't really so strange.

These concepts also have an effect on the Japanese-Korean tensions mentioned earlier. In the West, such tensions would die off with the men responsible. In Asia, however, the shame for such actions is applied to the group responsible, in this case the Japanese people, and is transmitted from generation to generation.

Even when all of the men responsible for Japanese atrocities are dead, the Koreans and Chinese will still consider the Japanese people responsible for those actions. The Japanese, on the other hand, will not apologize because they do not want to admit that their ancestors were wrong and thereby shame them after death. In the end, it all creates a tinderbox of pent-up tension that could blow up at any minute.

Hope that explains your question. It was a pretty brief explanation, but I don't have the time to go into the intricacies of the concept of shame in Confucian culture. Needless to say, it is a complicated subject.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by GePap
"utsde of town" and right inside downtown Megalopolis are two different things. I lived in a city damn close to significant US bases (Panama City Panama) and you did not see that sigificant a US precense, or hear that may overflights even though some of the bigest air-bases in the world at the time were in the Canal Zone. So there is a significan difference.

Im not going to argue with you about this. I know how close the bases were that I was at in Vincenza and K-town. You can accept it or not. I don't know how the base layouts are in Korea but I know that in Germany, and to a lesser extent Italy, they are scattered around in different cities and in multiple locations within a city. That means lots of Americans driving their personal and military transports around from here and there. Draw whatever you want from it.

[Frankychan]

It's almost like the Japanese communities asking for US justice for the rapes that US servicemen committed in Okinawa and in Japan.

Although this was an accident and is totally different than intentional rape. I think the two drivers should formally apologize and not Bush.

[Zero]

Drake ur absolutely right, but Koreans are just generally bitter toward Americans in general. Then again, most of the world are like that... just koreans more in particular...

Fact is koreans dont like us. Even small things like olympic controversy in archery, speed skating etc pisses them off cause they Think that we as a bigger country influences the outcome and unpurposely rub them off since to them it seems to only happen with Korea-US.

No, S, Korea does not need US help to beat N.Korea in a conventional war.

I dunno, when I visited the memorial/museum-esque site in Korea, the tour guide told me a different story of how they will be doomed if N.K launches first strike. Then again, thats highly likely a biased view, or personal view that wasnt really based on any fact... But N.K does overwhelm S.K forces in numbers though. That probably is true.

I wonder if the Korean president will do the same in reversed situation. U.S prolly wouldnt have demanded like they did anyway but I wonder...

[Tingkai]

It certainly is difficult to understand why the Koreans are upset. Two young girls get run over and killed by an American military vehicle. The driver and commander don't even get a slap on the wrist. Instead the two culprits get transferred out of Korea (where have we heard this before).

Yup, it's just them strange Asians and their wacky culture.

[Zero]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
This Asian tradition of making apologies all the time is cool. I like it. It's also considered rather normal for a man to shed tears (a lot of tears, in fact) in front of his collegues as an act of his sincere apology.

my korean dad tells me otherwise. He tells me "A man only sheds tears three times in his life". -birth, childhood and death of your parents. A male shedding tear in public would be considered rude, just as how someone stated not apologizing more than you need to would be considered rude. (its not apology per say but being ridiculously humble to a point where you look like ur an idiot )

whereever you heard this, apologizing while tears running down from ur face would indicate exactly this... ur theoratically being so humble ur pretty much giving up ur manhood to the person. Thats some extreme apology that even asians wont even demand.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
It certainly is difficult to understand why the Koreans are upset.

Stop being obtuse and read what he posted.

He's wondering why they're asking for a personal apology from someone who wasn't even involved with it.

Do you always have to be such a jackass?