President Bush Jr's Scorecard

[Drake Tungsten]

but when exactly did this become a pissing contest to see whose parents were poorest?

Right about here...

The argument that you will not be poor if you work hard is BS. My parents have worked hard all thier lives but we still live from paycheck to paycheck, classic working class. To become rich you need to be born to a rich family, or be lucky. (Lottery, Pro sports, Acting, Music,etc.)

[Ming]

You can thank the traditional Anti America trolls for claiming as usual that capitalism sucks, and that we are all evil because Bush is a republican and pro business and not a liberal who wants to tax us more so they can waste the money in programs that aren't accomplishing much

[Imran Siddiqui]

Imran: Your friend then left comunity college and went to rutgers, so that is irrelavent. Community colleges and tech schools are only 2-year as far as I know, and an associates degree is only slightly better than high school.

And he took government loans at Rutgers. It ain't that hard to get loans, bub. Hell, I'm going to leave Law School with $130,000+ in loans, but I'll work hard and pay it off.

Yea, some people make the wrong choices, but there are winners and losers in the system. And the middle class are doing pretty damn good for themselves.

[Ned]

Ming, I used to think conspiracy theory nuts were right-wingers who just knew that Jewish bankers controlled the world.

However, I find it amusing to see that the "average" leftist is also a conspiracy theory junkie. They see conspiracies everywhere. Every action of a the United States, Israel or any Republican has to be explained in terms of one of their pet theories. For example, Iraq is about Big Oil. So was Afganistan. Etc. Etc.

I wonder where this all comes from?

[Ming]

I always love how they try to make it sound that only 2 to 5% of the people win under Capitalism... Tell that to the middle class... you know, the ones with their beautiful homes... their SUV's... and send their kids to good schools... There are poor in every country... no matter what form of government.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


In the spirit of my current read "Atlas Shrugged", the real question is why should it? What value is there in an entitlement program? A re-training program perhaps there is value to be gained, but what moral responsibility does the government truly have other than to provide security and opportunity.

Forget moral responsibility. Your economy right now is driven by consumer spending. Plus, policing, courts, prisons, security guards, gated communities, insurance, liability costs, even shoplifting... all these costs go up when you have great numbers of poor people who have lost hope.

It makes much more sense, from a strictly economic point of view, to give people a living income and training so that a) they'll spend, and be a contributing to society in that sense, b) not need to resort to crime, which is VERY expensive for a society, and c) they can hopefully return to a working class lifestyle level like the majority of the population.

If economic reasons and moral reasons aren't good enough, what is good enough?




Awwww Ming... please don't dismiss things you don't agree with as trolling. It hurts my feelings. Besides, you do it too

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Ming
I always love how they try to make it sound that only 2 to 5% of the people win under Capitalism... Tell that to the middle class... you know, the ones with their beautiful homes... their SUV's... and send their kids to good schools... There are poor in every country... no matter what form of government.

Er, point of order: middle class means 'business owners'. If you work for someone else, you are working class.

Again, pick your terms as to what 'winning' is. Are you a millionaire? If so, congrats, the tax system works for you. If not... you're subsidizing a corporate tax break. I don't call that winning.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

More to the point... why have people live in poverty when your society could easily afford to give them a decent lifestyle?

[Imran Siddiqui]

It makes much more sense, from a strictly economic point of view, to give people a living income and training so that a) they'll spend, and be a contributing to society in that sense, b) not need to resort to crime, which is VERY expensive for a society, and c) they can hopefully return to a working class lifestyle level like the majority of the population.

How much economics do you know?

To give people a 'living income' you'd have to raise taxes a MASSIVE amount, strangling middle class spending, where the economy is REALLY dependant on. It isn't just consumer spending, but middle class spending, so everything is geared, basically, to them. Yes, even the Bush tax cut was in a large part geared to them.

Inocome taxes to the rich, which the Dems went nuts about? Miniscule. That does help the economy, but it's the middle class that the tax cut was for. Especially upper middle class.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
Awwww Ming... please don't dismiss things you don't agree with as trolling. It hurts my feelings. Besides, you do it too

I'm not dismissing anything... just pointing out that while there are poor people in America... a BIG majority have an excellent standard of living... and the ole 2 to 5% argument is just a red herring used by the socialists... Heck, recent examples of socialism and communism also have their elite class... they are not only rich, but they are the government So please don't try the high road stuff.

I also love it when people assume that if you come from a good family, that you are successful only because of your parents... Heck, as I said, my dad started off dirt poor... and taught his three sons how to be successful.

None of us were set up in business by him, or have received any money... My degree is from a State School... but we learned our lessons and all have very successful careers... I spit on those that think I didn't earn what I have...

People make choices... and if you don't make the right choices, it isn't MY fault.

[Seeker]

"People make choices... and if you don't make the right choices, it isn't MY fault."

The essential difference between Canada and America...

We have something called 'social responsibility' here.

Don't ask me what it means, I'm not even sure myself.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Seeker
The essential difference between Canada and America...

We have something called 'social responsibility' here.

Don't ask me what it means, I'm not even sure myself.

It just means you have a "free" healthcare system where you have to wait many years for things that are considered basic health care treatments in the US...

And old man...

Er, point of order: middle class means 'business owners'. If you work for someone else, you are working class.

Not really, middle class is NOT defined as business owners... but if that is how you understand it... let me rephrase it then... just for you

Tell that to the middle class and working class... you know, the ones with their beautiful homes... their SUV's... and send their kids to good schools...

Is that better for you

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
How much economics do you know?

To give people a 'living income' you'd have to raise taxes a MASSIVE amount, strangling middle class spending, where the economy is REALLY dependant on.

*sighs* did you read the rest of my post, or when you saw the words 'give people a living income', did your knee jerk so hard that you knocked the monitor over?

The idea is that you'd would save a lot more in the long run by curing a lot of societal ills. Probably the income supplements would amount to about half the money spent on defence contracts. Priorities, priorities... guns or butter?

@Ming - the right choices aren't always going to get you ahead. And the wrong choices won't necessarily kill you either. Life is part skill, part chance. So, lets forget welfare cheats - the bottom line is, should good people live in poverty? That's the question.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Ming

Not really, middle class is NOT defined as business owners... but if that is how you understand it... let me rephrase it then... just for you

Tell that to the middle class and working class... you know, the ones with their beautiful homes... their SUV's... and send their kids to good schools...

Is that better for you

It's better for me... the words 'middle class' have been somewhat hijacked over the years.

Anyhoo. Yes, some of the working class have big homes, big SUVs. And the US also has the lowest levels of consumer SAVING that it ever has had, and the highest level (as a percentage of income) of consumer debt of any time in US history. So those lifestyle perks aren't necessarily the product of of an economy that benefits the working class.

And if you like, I can amend my point: In a fair system, the working classes would have even bigger SUVs. Right now, the money that could be used to upgrade the 4Runner to an LX470 is instead being used to fund defence contracts and corporate largesse.

[Ming]

People should live in poverty if they make the choice to do so. Yeah, there are some people that should become "wards" of the state... the mentally ill or severly handicapted don't have the choice... I have no problem with my tax money being spent on helping people who will use that help and try to improve themselves by making he right choices. If they don't want to do what is needed to pull themselves out of poverty, I don't see why the government should have to drag by the neck... it is their choice.

I know a poor black single mother... her boyfriend got her pregnant and left. She went on welfare... learned typing skills... became a secretary and used much of her salary on day care... in her spare time she studied for her real estate license... and started doing some on the side. She is now a very successful real estate agent, living in a beautiful home in the upscale northern suberbs of Chicago... She is her own boss and now spends tons of time with her child.

Now please tell me why others can't make those same choices... There are many paths to success... it's not that hard to find one.