President Bush Jr's Scorecard

[Sava]

Socialism tried several times and failed? Are you living in the bizarro world? Look at the Canada and other more socialism-like democracies. Their people have much more opprotunities than in the US.

I know that is the purpose of capitalism... and as DD pointed out, it's pointless to argue with me because I believe capitalism is evil.

I also don't understand why people think its a bad thing to pay like 60 percent taxes. Most people now can't afford health care, education, and housing. THAT MEANS THAT MORE THAN 100% OF THEIR INCOME IS NEEDED TO PAY FOR THOSE THINGS. People look at taxes as being bad, but if say 60% of your income is going towards health care, education, public transportation, etc... YOU HAVE 40 PERCENT TO SPEND ON WHATEVER YOU WANT. How many people (aside from the richest 1%) can say they can spend 40 percent of their income on consumer goods/luxuries, or save it? Hmmm?

The problem with most anti-socialists is that they can't see past their own selfish tendencies. It's the old "blah blah, I don't want the government taking my money".

Well, you need to think outside the box, look past your own selfishness, and think about how worse off life is for millions of people other than you.

[Ming]

Hmmmm... actually socialism should be viewed as an evil and selfish way to do things. The "I deserve whatever EVERYBODY else has even if I'm not willing to work hard and earn it" is the ultimate in selfishness and greed. Socialism promotes laziness and allows people to leach out of the system things that other people work hard for. Totally evil and unfair to those that do work hard

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ming
Hmmmm... actually socialism should be viewed as an evil and selfish way to do things. The "I deserve whatever EVERYBODY else has even if I'm not willing to work hard and earn it" is the ultimate in selfishness and greed. Socialism promotes laziness and allows people to leach out of the system things that other people work hard for. Totally evil and unfair to those that do work hard

This is an erroneous view of Socialism and Capitalism. Capitalism isn't a meritocracy as it is currently practiced, so the implication that hard work = financial reward isn't true. Plenty of poor people work very hard and still get screwed financially.

Socialism isn't necessarily economic egalitarianism (like communism). It's about the government creating a network of support for those who are economically disadvantaged so their basic needs are always met and people are not forced to wallow in poverty. So while socialist programs may provide free healthcare, unemployment, job training, etc., it by no means rewards laziness and tells people they can just not work and expect to see the same things as someone who does work hard.

But people will always say the same old tired fallacious arguments, I suppose--people on welfare are lazy, greedy pigs. Yeah, right.

[Lefty Scaevola]

12. has not done enough to fight spending bloat

[Ming]

Hmmm... I have friends who came over to this country with no money, and couldn't even speak the language... yet they worked hard and have been able to achieve success.

I know people who grew up in the worst parts of the city... where people claim that there is no hope, and that their race puts them at a disadvantage... yet through hard work, they have been able to lift themselves out of the bad situation and be successful.

It's all about choices you make... as it should be. You will probably say that at birth, everybody isn't equal. I would agree... However, this doesn't mean you should give up and quit and just say "poor me, I'm screwed"

The reality is, not everybody will be equal at birth... that's a fact. But it is also a fact that if you make the right choices, and work very hard, you can succeed.

I have never said that all people on welfare are lazy... But I have said that some are, and abuse a bad system.

Good welfare programs help people find work and help them lift themselves up. Unfortunately, many of the current programs do no such thing and only encourage staying in the system. States like Wisconsin have had excellent results with experimental systems that encourage people instead of keep them locked in a system that is an endless cycle of poverty.

There are faults and problems with EVERY system.
You may "think" that one is more evil than another, but it's just an opinion, and others are welcome to think your opinions are evil as well

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Re: Re: President Bush Jr's Scorecard

Originally posted by The diplomat




Many of these protections were inefficient, bureaucratic mess that helped no one and certainly not the envirronment nor the economy.

Now we can sign the Kyoto Accord and lose more jobs and hurt our economy just so that we can feel good about yourselves because we can pretend that we care about nature. Or, we can stimulate the economy and protect the environment in a serious way.

Technically speaking the American public although mouthing the support of enviro bills and and acts will, when faced with the consequences of such bills, be in an open revolt.

The American public will all of a sudden be faced with the lack of choices the Euro's are currently faced with wrt automotive travel. No longer will Joe Blue Collar be allowed his 5.0 liter Mustang. No longer will Sally Housewife be allowed the priveledge of cheap produce.

In order to comply Kyoto accords massive cutbacks on green house gasses would need to happen. All everyone thinks of is it is the evil corporations who continue to rape the planet. News flash - Corps , chemical, petrochemical, power producers, car manufaturers etc. create a small percentage of green house emissions. The greatest offender of all is the common everyday citizen driving by himself/herself everyday. Think the greater public at large has a hard time swallowing a reduction in civil liberties, just see what happens when their cars are verbotten.

I get so fed up with the green crowd laying the whole of every environmental problem at the door step of industry. It the consumers and waste of consumers that are the problem, but as we all know it is not politcally expedient to target the voting consumers its much easier to target the evil corps.... ehh.

[Drake Tungsten]

Remember, it is the US that is trying to aggravate the NKs over here, the Japs and SKs really just want to continue the 'Sunshine' Policy.

Not true. While many South Koreans want to continue the 'Sunshine' policy, it is not popular in Japan at all. The South Koreans can afford to hope for the best from North Korea, since they are relatively sure that North Korean nukes will be targeted towards foreigners, not fellow Koreans.

The Japanese, on the other hand, have the most to fear from North Korean nuclear weapons. The historical enmity between Korea and Japan ensures that Tokyo will be a prime target for any North Korean nuke. Popular opinion in Japan is decidedly against North Korea, particularly after the revelations that a number of Japanese citizens had been kidnapped by North Korea in the past. Prime Minister Koizumi has been widely criticized for his continued opening of relations with North Korea.

I don't see where you got the idea that the Japanese support the 'Sunshine' policy, especially since the 'Sunshine' policy is solely the work of the South Korean government and Kim Dae Jung in particular.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
[T]he implication that hard work = financial reward isn't true. Plenty of poor people work very hard and still get screwed financially.

I agree. However, making money isn't just about working hard, it's also about working smart. Capitalism favors people who can work to their own advantage. It's easy to work incredibly hard and have trouble making ends meet if you're bad with finances, and it's also easy to work a comparatively light load and do quite well, if you know how to work the system.

The way to be wealthy in capitalism is to work within the free market and provide services or goods that give you the best return on your investment. It's common sense, but too often people ignore it. Capitalism isn't about hard work, it's about getting other people (customers and employers) to make you rich. The trick to that is knowing what they want and making sure that you provide it to them.

[Ming]

Felch X

So true... So true...

It's the people who think they that they should have everything just given to them without lifting a finger who are the true selfish people here.

[Az]

Hey, most chances are that I'll succeed in life (crosses fingers) and I still believe that communism is the best!

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Ming
Felch X

So true... So true...

Yeah I have to agree. Thats exactly what capitalism is.

It's the people who think they that they should have everything just given to them without lifting a finger who are the true selfish people here.

Yep....Capitalism is a system where you work HARD and LONG for what you get

[Felch]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Yep....Capitalism is a system where you work HARD and LONG for what you get

Did you read what I said? You can work long and hard and get nowhere if you're not providing something that the market demands. Capitalism isn't about hard work, it's about making other people happy enough that they give you what you want.

Pure capitalism exists here in the United States in the drug trade. A dealer who provides his customers with what they want can make huge amounts of money. Someone who doesn't provide the goods that his customers want will end up broke - or worse. The opportunity for success is there for anybody, from the poorest hood rats to the richest heirs, and it doesn't require much hard work - just the ability to know what customers want, and to provide it for them.

[Sava]

Yeah, the classic... "only the lazy are poor" excuse... its old, and proven to be wrong... NEXT!

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Felch X


Did you read what I said?

Apolyton has a wide range of smilies avaible and are routinely inserted into posts in order to alter the tone of the message.

[Sava]

The problem is that Bush is turning America into Texas, the anus of America (in terms of pollution ). While Bush was in office in Texas, the state became the worst polluter. Now, Bush is easing restrictions on automakers to improve effiency. He's loosening restrictions on polluting energy industries and loggin industries. You know what, I would favor killing jobs in order to get rid of polluting industries. And the nature of capitalism will help my cause because the demand for clean energy will produce jobs.

Being against the Kyoto protocol and other enviro bills isn't about jobs, its about letting wealthy, polluting companies continue to rape the earth without accountability.