President Bush Jr's Scorecard

[Odin]

I surrender!

[Drake Tungsten]

I surrender!

Well that wasn't very hard. You'll never succeed with that work ethic...

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Sava
Success on the war on terror

Let's add some more stuff to the Bush--- BAD List

-- Gave massive tax cuts to the wealthy (Enron received nearly 500 million dollars, despite not paying any taxes from 1997-2000)

And he was president for which of these years, exactly? EDIT: Damn I didn't see Dino's post.

Bush is a moron... but he'll be out in 2004 so it doesn't matter.

Can I hold you to that quote? The Democrats have nobody good to run. Bush, and the Republicans in general, have garnered a lot of support from the moderates. Things are looking bad for the Dems.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Ming


Yes... the American Dream isn't just "dream", it's a reality for those who are willing to work and willing to understand the system. I do feel for those that have to work hard all their lives and get very little back in return.

What happens to the people who, through no fault of their own, don't 'understand the system' ?

You can get a good education, start to work for a prosperous company, invest in their success... seems like a great system unless the company is named 'Enron'.

Look. Both socialism and capitalism have good points, and bad ones. Bottom line is, there are a lot more people in the US (and elsewhere) who work hard and DON'T get to live the 'American dream', than those who do live it.

Lots of immigrants become successful... and lots more wind up in sweatshops, or unemployed. Is society as a whole better off not helping people in that position? Or is society better off paying to keep them in gaol, after they get caught trying to 'understand the system' better?

[Ming]

While I feel for those people... they made the wrong choices. Sure, some people lose because of things out of their control. But I get sick to death of hearing how you have to come from rich parents to be rich... and all that crap.

The majority of people in the in US have a higher standard of living than most people in the world. And yes there are poor people... EVERY SOCIETY has them...

And the Government has set up programs to help. The problem is... they are badly run programs.

I have no problems with WELL RUN social progams meant to help unfortunate people... And while the US has many such programs, most of them are poorly conceived and even worse managed. I would love to see these programs reformed so that actually can help. The government has thrown a lot of money at domestic programs aimed at helping people. It's time they learn how to spend the money right.

But that doesn't stop me from liking a system that allows people that make the right choices to get ahead.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
The Democrats have nobody good to run.

Are you saying Al Gore and Senator Kerry are no good.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Ming
While I feel for those people... they made the wrong choices. Sure, some people lose because of things out of their control. But I get sick to death of hearing how you have to come from rich parents to be rich... and all that crap.

The majority of people in the in US have a higher standard of living than most people in the world. And yes there are poor people... EVERY SOCIETY has them...

And the Government has set up programs to help. The problem is... they are badly run programs.

I have no problems with WELL RUN social progams meant to help unfortunate people... And while the US has many such programs, most of them are poorly conceived and even worse managed. I would love to see these programs reformed so that actually can help. The government has thrown a lot of money at domestic programs aimed at helping people. It's time they learn how to spend the money right.

But that doesn't stop me from liking a system that allows people that make the right choices to get ahead.

Well... how does one know in advance what the right choice is? Sure, get an education, try to find a business niche that needs filling, work hard. Common sense. But quite often, these things can change suddenly - that dot com startup seemed like a good investment! - and it goes bad. My problem with the absolutist view of capitalism is that the only ones who REALLY benefit are the top 2-5% of the population. The working class does OK, but they pay more than their share, relative to the truly rich. And the attitude seems to be, screw the poor. Nobody chooses to be poor... and society would be a lot better off giving people in that situatuon a second chance.

You don't have to come from rich parents to be rich. But I'd say you have a much better chance of being rich if you do.

And yes, every society has poor people. The US is one of the few that has the resources to do something to help them, though.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
What happens to the people who, through no fault of their own, don't 'understand the system' ?

You can get a good education, start to work for a prosperous company, invest in their success... seems like a great system unless the company is named 'Enron'.

If you don't understand the system you fail. If you put all your eggs in one basket a la Enron, you aren't understanding the system. Yes capitalism does have risks. However, more people win than lose, and anybody is capable of winning.

We're not saying that everyone wins. We're just saying that if you provide something that people are willing to pay for, be that brains, talent, a nifty product, or whatever, you'll do well. If you don't have anything to offer, then you'll have nothing to gain.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Odin
Are you saying Al Gore and Senator Kerry are no good.

Kerry was in Vietnam Vets Agsint the War, so he's not all bad. But he's moved far from that position since then.

Yes, I'd say they are both no good, although they are both credible threats to Bush, Gore especially, as he now seems to be able to motiveate people where he couldn't before. It's just an act, and he's still a closet conservative, and he'll still be an imperial President if he wins.

The only good presidents are money, and even they can betray you.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Felch X


If you don't understand the system you fail. If you put all your eggs in one basket a la Enron, you aren't understanding the system. Yes capitalism does have risks. However, more people win than lose, and anybody is capable of winning.

I don't think so... it seems a lot more people are below the poverty line, than earning 100K or more, if you check a demographics webpage. But those are just 2 ways to define winning and losing. It's apparent that there are a few big winners, some doing well, some just getting by, and some who are really hurting. I guess it depends on how you define 'winning'. It does seem pretty clear that the capitalist system is set up to provide the greatest benefit to the top 2-5% of earners... I always marvel that the other 95-97% continually gives the thumbs up to that. I guess some dreams, however unrealistic, never die.

It's simplistic to say that failure=not understanding the system. The 'system' was different in 1950, or even 1990, than it is now. Kind of hard to change careers after 20 years in the workforce, as anyone who's tried will attest. And blaming people for something they couldn't forsee (that caused their failure) is one of the least attractive American traits.

[Jac de Molay]

The government has thrown a lot of money at domestic programs aimed at helping people. It's time they learn how to spend the money right.

As opposed to "throwing a lot of money" at pork-filled defense contracts and corporate welfare? The social programs are a fraction of those, dollar-wise, yet the impact they have in peoples live can't have a value placed on it.

Conservatives seem quite content to hold up the druggie or the welfare queen as the example of a wasteful system, yet have no qualms about greasing the palms of corporations with much more money than the poor ask for in times of need.

Bush is no different.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man


And yes, every society has poor people. The US is one of the few that has the resources to do something to help them, though.

In the spirit of my current read "Atlas Shrugged", the real question is why should it? What value is there in an entitlement program? A re-training program perhaps there is value to be gained, but what moral responsibility does the government truly have other than to provide security and opportunity.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Odin
The argument that you will not be poor if you work hard is BS. My parents have worked hard all thier lives but we still live from paycheck to paycheck, classic working class. To become rich you need to be born to a rich family, or be lucky. (Lottery, Pro sports, Acting, Music,etc.) Also, You are limited (generally) by your education and most poor people don't have the money to go to college (Community colleges and tech schools don't count, I feel, as real secondary education)

Both of my parents grew up on farms in the 1930's - 1950's. They were quite poor. They both went to college in the 50's. Then they worked in Asia as missionaries for about 10 years (making very little money). Then they both went back to school in the 70's. My mother became an MD and my father a college professor. They made enough money to buy homes, take vacations etc. They are upper middle class people.

They did all this from scratch. No one in their families had ever attended college before them. My mother's father only got to the 4th grade, while her mother made it to the 8th grade before each of them had to go to work to support their families during the depression. It seems to me that people can succeed here in the U.S., despite coming from humble beginnings. They have to want to succeed rather than complain of course, and they have to make good decisions along the way.

You seem to be caught up in your parent's version of reality. "The game is fixed so why try?" I've seen a lot of my working class relatives use the same excuses to remain poor. Don't fall for it! You haven't taken your shot at it, and it would be a shame to spend the rest of your days sullen and destitute, blaming everyone else for your own paranoia and unwillingness to take a chance.

As for me, I was lucky to have good role models economics-wise. I just went out and got jobs, even in really bleak economic times when I was the least employable in the late 70's and early 80's. Now I am comfortable. I have chosen to forego a lot of money in exchange for having a job where I have a lot of freedom to read, post on Apolyton etc. It's easy and comfortable, and having grown up fairly poor (my parents didn't get back to school in time to make much money until I was already out of the house), my needs and desires for the things that money can buy are quite limited and for the most part fulfilled. I still make enough to own my home, pay for health care and food etc., a new computer every couple of years, games, books, CDs, and a few vacations a year. It's not that hard. You don't need a college degree to do what I do, you just have to know you want to do it and have to have a good IQ.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

Well... how does one know in advance what the right choice is? Sure, get an education, try to find a business niche that needs filling, work hard. Common sense. But quite often, these things can change suddenly - that dot com startup seemed like a good investment! - and it goes bad.

There are things that are always going to be in demand, even if they are never the hottest thing going. If you fear taking a huge risk in your life you might want to go into one of these fields. You won't make as much money perhaps, but you will have a lot more security than getting paid in stock options from a dot com. For instance, I work in a hospital. There are no shortage of jobs here. The pay is ok for the level of education required (in general), the benefits are good, the hours are bad. But it's quite secure, as recession or not people still get sick.

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

My problem with the absolutist view of capitalism is that the only ones who REALLY benefit are the top 2-5% of the population. The working class does OK, but they pay more than their share, relative to the truly rich.

Are you speaking of taxes here, because if you are you are wrong about that. The working class does quite well in the U.S., as they are on the receiving end of a number of entitlements that should be welfare programs (social security), and they still don't pay their fair share of the tax burden if you define that burden as a straight precentage of income. The poor pull even less of their own weight, but that is pretty well known I suppose. The rich pay a vast majority of the tax burden.

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
And the attitude seems to be, screw the poor. Nobody chooses to be poor... and society would be a lot better off giving people in that situatuon a second chance.

I agree, but I would also say that we as a society have a right to withhold our largesse when we feel that we are being taken advantage of.

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
You don't have to come from rich parents to be rich. But I'd say you have a much better chance of being rich if you do.

I agree, and probably the greatest gift that is given to the children of the well to do is that of a good example. Let's face it, inherited wealth is usually completely squandered within a couple of generations. But understanding how to succeed and emulating that is a thousand times easier if your parents model that sort of behavior. I've seen this in action many many times, and it works.

[DRoseDARs]

I didn't want to post in this thread after having started it (wanted to sit back and watch the OT Forum psychology unfold...), but when exactly did this become a pissing contest to see whose parents were poorest?

The topic is Pres. Bush Jr.'s scorecard: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the Scary.