Nov 30th 1939 - A Date which will live in Infamy

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Odin

Finno-Russian War II? Go Finns!

No, thanks. Unless you and Pekka do the fighting.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Pekka
Armed properly, yes.. clothed? hmm.. don't think so.
Trained? Don't know about that either. Maybe some where, certainly not the whole army.

First of all: all their men were properly clothed, unlike the Finns as not all of our men had clothes, except for the so called "Cajander model" uniform that was the nickname for civilian clothing. Regarding the weaponry, Finland had very little artillery, no many tanks (except for the Vickers Armstrong tanks) and lack of airplanes (Bristol Blenheim Mk I wasn't properly intoduced when the Winter War break out and we only had Fiat F-60s and Morane-Saulnier MS-601 planes).

[Pekka]

So you think those black (or so) jackets can be called proper clothing for combat in winter in snow?
Thank God you're not my commander .

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Maybe Rasebelin, but the highest scoring non german ace of all time is a Finn. (Eino Juutilainen.) Simo Hayha, a Finnish sniper (with the dots on the a's) had 505 kills in a 105 day war. (Vasily Zaitsev had around 400 kills during the entire second world war) Hayha didn't have a scope on his rifle.

I can't image the bravery it takes to run through a minefield singing, knowing that you will almost certainly die.

[David Floyd]

Let's see here:

1)The Soviet Union was 100% wrong to invade Finland, period. There is absolutely no way it can be justified. Just because Dubya is using a bull**** doctrine of pre-emption today doesn't make it OK for either Stalin or him to use it.

And in any case, Iraq and Finland are not the same situation, although both wars are/were 100% wrong.

2)Soviets vs. Japan. First of all, Serb, you're right. A large Soviet army can't be deployed to the Far East over night. In fact, without massive US aid, it probably couldn't have been deployed at all, at least not as fast as it was. Most of its motorized transport and rail vehicles were Lend Lease from the US. Secondly, the Japanese Kwangtung Army was nothing more than a paper tiger. Sure, it had a lot of men, but the defeat of that army should not go down as a brilliant victory. Third, Serb, you know damn well the attack was opportunistic - yes, Stalin was "living up to the agreement" to attack, but after Japan surrendered he made a lot of bull**** territorial claims in the Far East. Why should the Soviets get client states in Korea, islands around Japan, and even, as they tried to demand, an occupation zone in Japan? I fail to understand that concept. You joined in the last days of the war, and your actions had little to no material effect on the outcome.

Totally different from the US joining in Europe a little late. Our involvement allowed the war to be won, period - between both Lend Lease and US military intervention. The fact is, without the US, the best the Soviet Union could have hoped for was a stalemate, with the Ukrainian breadbasket and probably even the Donetz industrial area in German hands.

3)Red Army being good/bad. Well, in 1941 it was saved only by the onset of winter. It's victories, prior to mid-1943, or even later, all came in winter. It's large advances were mainly won by superior numbers, and concentrating against the German allied troops such as Hungarians and Italians and Romanians. The Red Army won some campaigns when the numbers were about equal, in terms of men, at least, but the reason for their victories in these situations had to do with the US and Britain in Africa, Italy, and France, and the fact that the Red Army had a huge advantage in numbers of tanks and artillery, and that Lend Lease was providing for the motorization of the military (and the rear area transport capacity of it, not to mention food, etc.).

The Red Army, BY ITSELF, was simply not one of the world's premier ground forces. It became a steamroller when it was fighting inferior forces (whether inferior numerically or inferior in terms of quality - German allies), or when it was heavily supplied and armed by Lend Lease (remember, US resources fueled Soviet factories, as well), or when the German army was heavily distracted in the West (such as December 1944, when Hitler threw away his reserves in the West, in Operation Wacht am Rhein and Operation Nordwind).

[David Floyd]

and lack of airplanes (Bristol Blenheim Mk I wasn't properly intoduced when the Winter War break out and we only had Fiat F-60s and Morane-Saulnier MS-601 planes).

Then explain to me why, up through the end of the war, Finland had local air superiority any time they wanted it, over Soviet forces.

[Pekka]

Well they knew how to put them in full effect. YOu know, modern Air Forces all over the world (including the US) are still using some of the very same tactics developed by FAF (Finnish Air Force). We were badly lacking planes. We had actually more planes when the war was over, than in the beginning. Superior tactics, and training.

[Pekka]

If you want to know how dominating they were, you should check up www.winterwar.com and some FAF sites.

[David Floyd]

Pekka, I agree, I was talking to Rasbelin.

[Pekka]

Ah ok.. well he's closet communist, so he will propably say to you 'they were training with the Russians' or some bull like that. Other than that, he's a nice guy though .

[Ned]

I just scanned this thread to see if Apolyton's numerous communist would comment on Uncle Joe's invasion of Finland.

Not one peep.

Says a lot about what they stand for, doesn't it?

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
Maybe Rasebelin, but the highest scoring non german ace of all time is a Finn. (Eino Juutilainen.) Simo Hayha, a Finnish sniper (with the dots on the a's) had 505 kills in a 105 day war. (Vasily Zaitsev had around 400 kills during the entire second world war) Hayha didn't have a scope on his rifle.

Those were all great achievements.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Pekka

Superior tactics, and training.

That's true. Good tactics and training ensured that the planes were fully used, despite the lack of them.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Pekka

Ah ok.. well he's closet communist, so he will propably say to you 'they were training with the Russians' or some bull like that. Other than that, he's a nice guy though.

Pekka, I suggest we keep these communist flamings away from here. I only speak about the subject from a different prospective. Anyway, I agree with all the achievements. They were all great.

And in Finnish...

Pekka, pidetään kommaripuheet poissa täältä, jookos?

[Pekka]

Rasbe, sure, no problem. I understand you live in denial, don't worry. I won't hold it against you .