Rugby - One game to rule them all

[Caligastia]

Please don't close this one Rah. I am creating it because our old rugby thread is now at the 500 post limit.

Rugby needs a home on Apolyton!

[Caligastia]

Well I didn't get to see any of the games, but it sounds like we have had a few interesting results this weekend.

England beat Australia by a single point...what was that I had been saying about the margin you proposed finbar...?

For the first time in history NZ and France play to a draw. I'm disappointed to hear that 3 NZ players got sent off in the first half, but if we could still keep the scores level after that then I suppose thats an encouraging sign. With a little more discipline this NZ team will go far.

Everyone who wrote about the game is raving about Umaga's try, so I'm hoping I'll be able to see it at some point in the future.

[spartak]

Bit ironic for any Kiwi to refer to one game to rule them all right now.

This must be the worst NZ tour ever.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Taz
Bit ironic for any Kiwi to refer to one game to rule them all right now.

This must be the worst NZ tour ever.

Nah, one loss, one draw. Not the best we've had, but far from the worst.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Caligastia Nah, one loss, one draw. Not the best we've had, but far from the worst.

I have seen the game this morning when I came back from a party, France could have won this game in the last minutes of the match if the ball hadn't fell from the tee when François Gelez (10) was about to kick a rather easy penalty.

The game in itself was interesting though the ball proved difficult to control because of the november dew, many interesting phases were thus aborted because of handling errors. A solid AB defense (and a bit of craftiness) against enterprising french backs and dominating forwards has prevented the french to score more tries.

About the three AB players sent off I just can say the referee's decisions were justified and Christian Cullen's obstruction could have even been associated with a penalty try for France.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Well I didn't get to see any of the games, but it sounds like we have had a few interesting results this weekend.

England beat Australia by a single point...what was that I had been saying about the margin you proposed finbar...?

It's my fault the Wallabies discovered some commitment and passion? Even if their handling was as incompetent as before. It really was a strange match. We had 37% of possession and had absolutely no right to get so close, let alone lead by 15 points midway through the second half.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I have seen the game this morning when I came back from a party, France could have won this game in the last minutes of the match if the ball hadn't fell from the tee when François Gelez (10) was about to kick a rather easy penalty.

I heard about that. Apparently the ball fell off the tee, he picked it up to run with it, but the ref called a scrum. What laws govern that situation? Does anyone know?

OTOH, apparently Gelez also missed another late penalty - from the sideline - that, again, would have won them the game.

About the three AB players sent off I just can say the referee's decisions were justified and Christian Cullen's obstruction could have even been associated with a penalty try for France.

A SH ref! An Australian ref, in fact.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Nah, one loss, one draw. Not the best we've had, but far from the worst.

Under all the circumstances - the squad picked, and so on - I'd call it a successful tour. It has been, basically, an investment in the future.

[Bearcat]

How are the Eagles doing, if they are playing at all?

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar

I heard about that. Apparently the ball fell off the tee, he picked it up to run with it, but the ref called a scrum. What laws govern that situation? Does anyone know?

Something similar happened recently during the S12's didn't it? Don't remember the teams though. Windy conditions and the ball was blown off axis - led to a scrum for the other team (again IIRC) even though the penalty-takers didn't try to pick it up and run it.
Some sort of penalty imposed for not having another player steadying the ball ... ?

The English must really be on a high at the moment. Coming from behind to beat the Wals, particularly after having managed to hold off the AB's the previous week, has probably given them an even bigger boost than would a crushing win.
I just wonder if the pile of Havaks empties over the past couple of weeks has reached sufficient mass to perturb the mechanics of orbitting satellites.

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
Something similar happened recently during the S12's didn't it? Don't remember the teams though. Windy conditions and the ball was blown off axis - led to a scrum for the other team (again IIRC) even though the penalty-takers didn't try to pick it up and run it.
Some sort of penalty imposed for not having another player steadying the ball ... ?

You're right, I recall the same incident. I also recall the reference to the folly of not having someone steadying the ball. But, on the other hand, I've also seen the ball come off the tee - or the little pile of sand - and be replaced. This season, IIRC, there was also a time limit imposed on the taking of kicks, though I can't recall whether it was for penalties, conversions or both. I wonder if that law enters this equation.

The English must really be on a high at the moment. Coming from behind to beat the Wals, particularly after having managed to hold off the AB's the previous week, has probably given them an even bigger boost than would a crushing win.

The bottom line, IMHO, is that England have come a hell of a long way over the last 3 or 4 years. They're a powerful, skilled team but, I think, with a couple of question marks. As I discussed with Havak in the other thread, there are almost two England teams on the field - forwards and backs - and the connection between the two can be immensely haphazard, and, sometimes, just about non-existent. On top of that, there seems to be a lack of strategy and coordination amongst the backs. These problems were on display against both the ABs and the Wallabies and will haunt them in matches against top class line-ups. Apart from that, I'm not sure to what extent playing at Twickers helps them. Winning against top class line-ups away is a very big test - as just about every team in the world knows.

Yes, their comeback against the Wallabies was admirable, but they had 63% possession over the course of the match and found themselves 15 points down midway through the second half. As Havak observed - they should have buried the Wallabies before half time.

I just wonder if the pile of Havaks empties over the past couple of weeks has reached sufficient mass to perturb the mechanics of orbitting satellites.

I gather the CIA are preparing a report - based on satellite observation - to the effect that Havak is constructing a weapon of mass destruction in his backyard.

Truth be told, the pile has already caused the mass destruction of the chap slumped in front of the telly inside!

[Havak]

He was the only back who counted though

Hard to agree with that, I think Cohen and Simpson-Daniel showed great promise. The Centres failed to impress yet again however.

Missed a horrible obstruction from loittering players to, something that led to England getting 3 points

Now given that yourself and Finbar have picked on this I have a right to point out that throughout the game he continually wagged a finger at the Wallabies for entering from the side (when he saw it that is) – long after he should have started using the yellow card for it. Balance that against 3 points and you got the better of the deal I think.

Bugger!

Never mind. They are still favourites.

the stats out of the game are extraordinary

To say the least. I think your tackle ratio was something like 5:2. England lost no set pieces (restart not counted here). Crucially you lost only two line outs to Ben Kay. And that after Paul limped off as you pointed out. More tested second row pairs have suffered more at our hands so that was exemplary.

Your analysis is very detailed and it’s hard for me to fault much of it. This I liked

Dan Vickerman steamrolling J**** in a clean-out warmed my heart just a tad, too.

Part of the game will have the second rows bumping heads. The ‘old stager’ got right back up and back into position. I didn’t see a single hit on him that troubled him at all.

I did enjoy Gregan’s indecision as Cohen burst through towards the end, but that’s a bit picky of me – he had an excellent game and, afterwards, was unusually, well, ‘nice’ for want of a better word.

Eddie however was on good form with some classy quotes, the pick of which was “the great thing about next year is that it is a neutral venue for everyone – except us”

Stating the b******* obvious but doing it will style.

George Gregan should be applauded for his decision not to take the penalty kick in the closing seconds of the first half. The try was a fitting reward.

Actually I hated him for it. And putting oil on Wilko’s shoe was a bit low.

(kidding! It was nice to see a brave decision pay off)

last night they not only took wrong options but seemed, at times, under pressure, not to have a clue

It remains a massive cause of concern all right.

There was offside and obstruction all over the place that Honiss missed

Yes but he didn’t pick you up for either of those all game.

Don’t try to convince me that the Wallabies were the more ‘honest’ team in this game because that’s simply wrong. They were their usual accomplished Professional selves.

You need someone - and maybe it's not your current coach - who can weld together the backs and the forwards

I’m tending towards this point of view. Woodward has had a long time to kick Greenwood and Tindall into shape, it simply hasn’t happened. This is not to take anything away form what Clive has done for us. Five years ago we would not have been disappointed with wins over the ‘big two’ however narrow they were. But he has raised the bar for us and it needs to keep moving. I wonder if he has done all he can?

and we can get our best players on the same paddock at the same time ...

If our backs could use ball, if Stimpson had been full back and flattened Flatley, if wishes were fishes and all that?

I watched some of it during the breaks in the England match. The Scots played very well - great passion - and the Boks looked like a rabble. Whatever ground they gained during the Tri-Nations seems to have disappeared again.

I caught some of it during the odd burst of immense all consuming anger (now why did that happen to me Saturday?) I was really impressed with Scotland. The forwards out muscled the Boks and they played linked up rugby in a way so conspicuously absent with England. Very well done to them.

Of course, with only one eye open, you missed J**** applying his boot to the back of a Wallaby player on the ground after the ball had moved on

No I didn’t. Lie on the wrong side and you invite such hints not to do it again. SH refs ignore this little tactic so players will handle it off the ball. As long as he didn’t stamp on his head I have no problem with this – it will have made your player think twice about doing it again. What Vickerman did prevented quick ball and leaked three points not seven – cynical Professional spoiling – yellow card. Technically what Jonno did might warrant red but I would hate to see a player sent off for trying to stop his opponents taking the ****.

But Dawson yes you are right. Utter stupidity and I think the try was ample punishment for such a blatant act.

Seriously, I was very happy with Vickerman's effort. Justin's too, for that matter.

They performed really well.

last night Honiss had obviously pre-determined to obsess about the lineout tunnel.

It was weird wasn’t it?

I know nothing more about the match than that

Gelez missed a penalty that would have lowered Kiwi colours at the death. I can understand why Tamerlin is not too happy with that.

Wales may have beaten Canada but they were shocking in phases and Scott Quinell retired with this game. The ABs play them next weekend and it will be murder I think.

the ball proved difficult to control because of the november dew

Thinking on this it was very noticeable how poor the footing was at HQ – when you have Smith and Backy slipping over at the ruck then you have poor traction indeed?

We had 37% of possession and had absolutely no right to get so close, let alone lead by 15 points midway through the second half.

At which point Havak was looking for his long lost Scottish ancestry.

I just wonder if the pile of Havaks empties over the past couple of weeks has reached sufficient mass to perturb the mechanics of orbitting satellites.

As rare as it is I stayed sober Saturday, but I lost all my finger nails

Strangely the camp is not on a high – they are still talking of looking for the complete performance, and they are well aware that both those teams will trouble them more on the road. There’s a lot to work on, not least that seven tries in two games is more than they conceded and HQ in the preceeding ten games.

I think they are hoping to murder the Boks but they are talking it down as I suspect it will be a very passionate Bok team Saturday – lose to us and their entire tour is a bust after all.

It should be a no-brainer but, as England prove time and time again we can take nothing for granted.

These problems were on display against both the ABs and the Wallabies and will haunt them in matches against top class line-ups

Sadly I thought your summary of the situation was pretty spot on. Making progress but nowhere near a complete article yet. And playing at home does hamper us – but it’s become such a money spinner in the autumn that it is fixed firmly in place for as far as the radar can see.

Truth be told, the pile has already caused the mass destruction of the chap slumped in front of the telly inside!

A fair comment normally. Thank god I stayed sober this time – it would have called for the Malt whisky I suspect.

[The Mad Monk]

[LDiCesare]

A few more comments on France-NZ match:
I think the ABs were more than lucky to get a draw. They played like they knew they were weaker, almost never attempting to attack but kicking far instead. This may have been a mistake on their part, as they had much less attack balls than the French and managed to get a try by Umaga when they did. Their first try was also a very nice piece of opportunity-grabbing by the prop. Sloppy defense around a lineout from the French.
On the other hand, France attacked a lot and managed to score very little, thanks to knocks-on, good AB defense and bad luck with kicks (two missed drop-goals, more penalties).
I think the rule about fallen ball when trying to kick is - if the kicker started running, then there must be a scrum. If he didn't start running yet, then he can place the ball again.
The good things were that Clerc totally ridiculed Lomu, the French lineout was excellent except once (which cost a try ), and Traille is getting better and better as a center.

Note that the evenness of the score is all the more so when you look at the tries: One try out of a lineout on each side (one thanks to the French attack against a prop-less defense, one from the same prop that the French forgot to defend against, maybe they didn't know he had come back from the bin), one try from a back on each side. Both Umaga and Brusque's tries are very beautiful, and they are a bit like one another (except Brusque ended with two players on the back and still managed to score).

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Hard to agree with that, I think Cohen and Simpson-Daniel showed great promise. The Centres failed to impress yet again however.

Cohen is a real talent. Simpson-Daniel I'm not sure about yet. I might be getting my England backs confused, but I didn't see much of him against the ABs, and, on Saturday, apart from some quick footwork, generally got swamped in the hurly burly. At times, the centres seemed to be playing as flankers.

Now given that yourself and Finbar have picked on this I have a right to point out that throughout the game he continually wagged a finger at the Wallabies for entering from the side (when he saw it that is) – long after he should have started using the yellow card for it. Balance that against 3 points and you got the better of the deal I think.

Outnumbered and he still goes down fighting! General Havak Custer rides again!

(restart not counted here).

At how many restarts did we knock on, I wonder.

I did enjoy Gregan’s indecision as Cohen burst through towards the end, but that’s a bit picky of me – he had an excellent game and, afterwards, was unusually, well, ‘nice’ for want of a better word.

That Dawson finished up Man of the Match was telling. I thought he was far superior to Gregan, showing much more initiative and variety. I can't blame this on George's 48 hours in the air between Tests. It's been a little while since George stamped some authority on a match and we're missing it. When he's stomping around dictating (by which I don't mean arguing with the ref), combined with varying his options, we do very well.

Eddie however was on good form with some classy quotes, the pick of which was “the great thing about next year is that it is a neutral venue for everyone – except us”

Stating the b******* obvious but doing it will style.

Eddie is feeling the pressure. Very crabby with the Australian media, accusing them of writing off both him and the team. The unfortunate thing is that this is the second dud tour for him. There have been mitigating circumstances both times, certainly, but games like that against the Irish the week before are just about impossible to forgive. And to come out one week later so vastly improved - in attitude, if not in some of the basic skills - is, ultimately, a real problem. Where was the attitude the week before?

What I can't fathom is why our skill levels have dropped. They weren't consistently good even during the local season. Our lineout has been a mess for this whole calendar year, yet I see endless footage of them practising lineouts at training. Rod Macqueen's teams' skill levels - particularly at lineouts - were always good. I'm not sure whether the problem is Eddie, the coaching staff, or both.

Don’t try to convince me that the Wallabies were the more ‘honest’ team in this game because that’s simply wrong. They were their usual accomplished Professional selves.

Did I claim otherwise? In fact, it was our professionalism - in every sense of the word - that got us so close on the scoreboard.

But he has raised the bar for us and it needs to keep moving. I wonder if he has done all he can?

Sometimes coaches do reach a use-by date. Or maybe he just lacks an overall vision. It's also possible, with the backs problem, that you need a good SH type in the management team - someone like a Kafer, brought up on the importance of backs, who lives and breathes and understands back play, who revels in creating and organising plays. In fact, watching on Saturday night, it occurred to me that the (England rugby x backs) equation seems to parallel the (England cricket x leg spin) equation - neither has much of a clue. I suspect that, back in Kafer's Brumbies days, they used to have competitions to design the most imaginative back plays.

Which reminds me! There was a wonderful comment from Poido during either the Pumas or Irish match. I forget which. After the scrum had been re-set for about the eighth time, Poido growled: "It's a dark science".

No I didn’t. Lie on the wrong side and you invite such hints not to do it again.

After the ball has gone? It's quite a different matter when the ball is somewhere nearby. Then, it can be claimed that you were aiming for the ball but missed.

Thinking on this it was very noticeable how poor the footing was at HQ – when you have Smith and Backy slipping over at the ruck then you have poor traction indeed?

Either everyone was wearing the wrong studs or there was something wrong with the surface. But - on TV anyway - it looked all right.