Rugby - One game to rule them all

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Sloth
Any she "dedicated contributor"? If the answer is yes I would like to know where....

Sorry Sloth, the ceremonies are restricted to the most dedicated contributors of this thread.

[Havak]

If the NZ decoys don't obstruct then no rules are broken

Forgive my aside into Pedant mode but there are no ‘rules’ to the beautiful game. Laws if you please.

and that perhaps people who prefer rucks and mauls wouldn't like this dimension..

You mean the actual phases of play that provide competition for the ball, the absolute essence of Union in actual fact?

Strangely you are out of sync with current SH thinking – see here .

I suspect that the English forwards will start communicating with their backs in this game.

Only by mobile phone probably.

BTW have you noticed the weakness of all the SH nations as far as scrums are concerned as if your forwards were already no more used to push scrums.

Why do you think the SH are so dead set against them?

No, apparently he broke the bones in an attempted charge down. I don't know which one.

I missed it totally. To busy biting my nails by then probably.

This is going to test my spiritual affinity with Italy.

Hmm this one would require a decent spread – 21 point start to “losing your affinity”?

Apparently the kid was devasted after the match because he knew he'd taken wrong options. That's the risk Eddie ran by making the decision.

Yes that was hard on the kid all right. But it will get better. A strong game against the Eyeties and things may look rosier by far.

As I've said before, let the IRB worry about more pressing - and real, not imagined - problems.

Indeed. All the various offside laws not currently enforced and the coming in from the side issue are both far more pressing. And coincidentally affect SH sides a great deal more when enforced properly.

I saw bits of it. The Boks were very scrappy. The coach is now into making wholesale changes to the team at every opportunity which is far from a good sign.

But this week he says he has spotted England’s weak points and is confident they will beat us! Not with James kicking the pill to us from Fly half he won’t!

By letter, presumably.

So Finbar – what margins do you have in mind?

Tamerlin strikes back!

Was it me or was he calling you southern nancies here? He might as well have spilt you pint.

Might mean his head on a platter if they lost yet again.

I thought Eddie was Mr Teflon myself?

You'd get on famously with Havak. Peas in a pod.

He can take that as a compliment I hope.

Union has always been a sport for the elite class

You are stuck two decades in the past as far as England is concerned. And in Wales it has been a working class game for generations.

I can’t believe it – we have a L***** defender. I thought they were extinct? The reality is the game here is dying, and dying quickly. The reason for that is the senior code is now Professional, with a vibrant international scene. L***** lacks the latter and that alone will kill it.

The trouble with urban myths is they stick. The Webb Ellis thing is pure nonsense. The devlopment of rugby paralleled s***** in the 19th century but they were distinct games form the word go.

L***** on the other hand was formed out of the "Northern Union" who broke away from the actual Union becuase they wished to pay players. That in itself is okay but they then took the essence of the game and got rid of it - competition for possession.

Thats called 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' and explains why L***** never truly broke out of it's tiny enclaves in Yorkshire and Lancashire in the UK.

I suspect the reason you think Union is socially exclusive is because it tends to attract a better educated audience in my expereince, being a far more complex game.

[Journeyman]

Originally posted by ravagon
golf, one of the most dreary and excruciatingly tedious games ever thought up came about when a halfling named Bullroarer, IIRC, knocked a goblins head off and sent it down a rabbit hole several hundred feet away. How something so entertaining could have sunk so far is beyond me ...

Indeed.

Originally posted by ravagon
Heh heh. Reduced Creativity? Doesn't L***** come to a complete standstill after basically every tackle? This tackle-stop cycle to be followed by the inevitable kick up field on the last or second-to-last before the handover?

That complete standstill lasts a second, and sets the field even again. As for the kick, well, creative things do happen but at least we see a better share of possession.

Originally posted by ravagon
I wouldn't want to speak for finbar but I'd hazard a guess at an answer something along the lines of "anybody and everybody"

I'm betting he's the one who imposed this censorship nonsense?

Sorry Journeyman, in spite of a common belief this is exactly the contrary, soccer is born from the game of Rugby which was neither Rugby nor S***** until William Web Ellis picked up the ball. Check the history of the game, as I did in the past, and you will be very surprised.

I was hoping no one knew that. As you said, it's a common belief and I was just firing back. But if you want a debate over sporting history that's fine with me

You are stuck two decades in the past as far as England is concerned.

I do not live in England anymore, I've been in Australia for twelve years. I know from firends and observation here it is still very much an elite game and though that's doesn't mean it's wrong, why rubbish the other code developed for those not so fortunate?

L***** on the other hand was formed out of the "Northern Union" who broke away from the actual Union becuase they wished to pay players. That in itself is okay but they then took the essence of the game and got rid of it - competition for possession.

Changes had to be made to the sport, no one would take it seroiusly otherwise. The lack of the scramble is not that bad, it allows for more focus to be put upon the set pieces, you have to look at it differently. Admittedly, League does look worse without quality players than Union does because those set pieces have to be of great quality.

I can’t believe it – we have a L***** defender. I thought they were extinct?

Extinct as the Super League, which I hear is doing very well. It's not as black and white as calling me a League Defender, I have respect for both games, in fact I found my paces better in Union. On a personal note, a past generation of mine owes a bit to professional League in England.

I suspect the reason you think Union is socially exclusive is because it tends to attract a better educated audience in my expereince, being a far more complex game.

That has a touch of arrogance, having a good memory for a bunch of rules is hardly 'educated' and the problems I refer to involve MONEY. If you believe League players are stupid than that's your prejudice, but when I refer to Elite I talk of a 'money' difference.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Forgive my aside into Pedant mode but there are no ‘rules’ to the beautiful game. Laws if you please.

The poster you're quoting is, after all, a New Zealander. Take pity.

Only by mobile phone probably.

I actually considered used that line but opted for communicating by letter. It's slower, y'see.

Hmm this one would require a decent spread – 21 point start to “losing your affinity”?

They'd better win by that much. Though I hear tonight that David Croft and Mark Bartholomeusz are now unavailable due to injury - the latter being one of the tour replacements! - so Eddie has 22 fit players left from which to choose his team of 22.

But this week he says he has spotted England’s weak points and is confident they will beat us! Not with James kicking the pill to us from Fly half he won’t!

I'd suggest Wilkinson don a bullet-proof vest to protect him against those shoulder charges. Who's the ref? Hopefully he will send off James and be done with it.

Was it me or was he calling you southern nancies here? He might as well have spilt you pint.

I give Tamerlin leeway that I wouldn't give you. I have an image of him hunting furiously through his myriad dictionaries and furiously typing all at the same time. Thus he's bound to make the occasional error - like thinking NH rugby is superior.

I can’t believe it – we have a L***** defender. I thought they were extinct?

First NeoStar, now Journeyman. If they get together and breed, we're in big, big trouble!

[Havak]

I know from friends and observation here it is still very much an elite game and though that's doesn't mean it's wrong, why rubbish the other code developed for those not so fortunate

An interesting view of the situation you have there. It was developed purely so the players could be paid. Nothing as noble as a crusade to give the proletariat a game of their own.

And I do live here, and have formed my views first hand, and one of the major changes in Union in the last twenty years is the way it’s social exclusivity is being broken down. Sure plenty of lawyers and doctors play the game, but so do Scaffolders, brick layers and labourers.

My background is working class, and I consider myself very much of that class. I prefer Union purely because I find League boring and predictable. It’s a personal viewpoint but I still reserve the right to slate anything that strikes me that way. It is my right to dislike L**** if I wish to do so.

it allows for more focus to be put upon the set pieces,

But you see that is part of what ruins it for me – it’s all rugby by numbers. Less room for individual creativity.

Extinct as the Super League, which I hear is doing very well

You hear wrong. Gates are falling, clubs struggling financially and the TV contract on which it relies (also only on Pay TV incidentally) reportedly under massive threat because ratings are rather poor.

It's not as black and white as calling me a League Defender

Well it’s not a life label I was sticking on you but the fact remains the expression defines what you are doing in your posts does it not? I am not dis-respecting your forebear, to each their own in life. I’m just pointing out this is not a generally friendly audience for League. Right or wrongs set aside most of us have little empathy for the code.

That has a touch of arrogance, having a good memory for a bunch of rules is hardly 'educated' and the problems I refer to involve MONEY. If you believe League players are stupid than that's your prejudice, but when I refer to Elite I talk of a 'money' difference

Well maybe I am arrogant but if so then not for that reason. For a start I was referring to the crowds not the players. Union has it’s fair share of wooden tops on the field. And it has some in the crowd too I am sure. But memory doesn’t come into it – intelligence is about the application of intellect not memory and knowing the laws of the game does not help you read it at all without that aspect added in.

And I’m sorry if the fact bothers you but given that Union is the utterly dominant code in Higher Education here there is a knock on effect on the crowd demographics at club games. The two codes are basically drawing from a different demographic.

Perhaps it should not be the case – but it remains the reality. Perhaps Australia is different. I can only speak for Union crowds in Australia – and as Finbar will attest I found them slightly different in composition and spirit to UK crowds in any case.

And as for your contention that money generates the Union Elite I really do not see that at the clubs with which I am directly involved. As for the RFU yes you may have a point – that institution is changing, but very slowly.

[Journeyman]

Originally posted by finbar
First NeoStar, now Journeyman. If they get together and breed, we're in big, big trouble!

Well its good to know I'm not alone on this thread. If you didn't shoot your mouth off, you wouldn't have this problem.

I can see you're the one who creates this silly anti league sentiment - and I pity you for enhancing the negative rugby stereotype of an ignorant boofhead who is all talk and no respect.

Still, a sad case is a funny case

[finbar]

Originally posted by Journeyman
Well its good to know I'm not alone on this thread. If you didn't shoot your mouth off, you wouldn't have this problem.

Problem? What problem?

[Journeyman]

Originally posted by Havak
And I do live here, and have formed my views first hand, and one of the major changes in Union in the last twenty years is the way it’s social exclusivity is being broken down. Sure plenty of lawyers and doctors play the game, but so do Scaffolders, brick layers and labourers.

You are right, of course, but you think it would be happening without League leading the way? I doubt it.

Originally posted by Havak
My background is working class, and I consider myself very much of that class. I prefer Union purely because I find League boring and predictable. It’s a personal viewpoint but I still reserve the right to slate anything that strikes me that way. It is my right to dislike L**** if I wish to do so.

I guessed as much, you are at least willing to explain your anti League view. I understand this "finbar" is your friend, but the immature way he insults it got on my nerves and I finally posted my disapproval, and I'm not surprised he avoids addressing me on the issue. I understand that its your opinion but why be silly about it?

Originally posted by Havak
But you see that is part of what ruins it for me – it’s all rugby by numbers. Less room for individual creativity.

Again you simplify, if you have the talent this structured game is a perfect bed for creativity since there is more time to think. It is a slowed down version of Union, and at times you get to notice some amazing things.

Originally posted by Havak
You hear wrong. Gates are falling, clubs struggling financially and the TV contract on which it relies (also only on Pay TV incidentally) reportedly under massive threat because ratings are rather poor.

Then they are silly to be trying to organise a Tri Nations system, aren't they? That's what I've read and if Super League is like you say it is how could that be the case?

Originally posted by Havak
Well it’s not a life label I was sticking on you but the fact remains the expression defines what you are doing in your posts does it not? I am not dis-respecting your forebear, to each their own in life. I’m just pointing out this is not a generally friendly audience for League. Right or wrongs set aside most of us have little empathy for the code.

This bickering is not good, your thread name is "Rugby" and that includes League. In a perfect world it would be ONE game but since it's there why make such a fuss? I've read intelligant conversation here, why suddenly change to childish taunts? I can understand prejudice against soccer, it is a major rival of Union but League is not.

Originally posted by Havak
Well maybe I am arrogant but if so then not for that reason. For a start I was referring to the crowds not the players. Union has it’s fair share of wooden tops on the field. And it has some in the crowd too I am sure. But memory doesn’t come into it – intelligence is about the application of intellect not memory and knowing the laws of the game does not help you read it at all without that aspect added in.

I doubt you're arrogant, but I didn't like what your statement implied. As long as you don't fall into this idea that idiots play League, just like Union is in your opinion 'better' there are those as smart as you who feel that way about League. The code has its good points too, improvisation and development of set tactics play a big part.

Originally posted by Havak
And I’m sorry if the fact bothers you but given that Union is the utterly dominant code in Higher Education here there is a knock on effect on the crowd demographics at club games. The two codes are basically drawing from a different demographic.

Utterly dominant in private schools, yes.

Originally posted by Havak
Perhaps it should not be the case – but it remains the reality. Perhaps Australia is different. I can only speak for Union crowds in Australia – and as Finbar will attest I found them slightly different in composition and spirit to UK crowds in any case.

And as for your contention that money generates the Union Elite I really do not see that at the clubs with which I am directly involved. As for the RFU yes you may have a point – that institution is changing, but very slowly.

Australian crowds are different, you're not imagining it. And as for you not seeing ANY of these things at your clubs I consider it to be an exception.

I do not want to continue bothering this thread on the subject, sport is best played, not argued about. Union is a lovely sport but remember League has its purpose too and don't think for a moment Union would have progressed the amount it has (and continues to do so) without its sister code.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Journeyman
I'm betting he's the one who imposed this censorship nonsense?

Why didn't you tell us you knew him before posting here ?

But I must support Finbar as we are having fun with this two pennies non-sense, moreover nonsense is mainly what this thread is all about.

I was hoping no one knew that. As you said, it's a common belief and I was just firing back.

We are educated gentlemen here, we are Rugby supporters.

Havak is right to point out W.W. Ellis is merely a myth but it is a fun one.

I fear a debate over sport history will take too much time but feel free to talk on this subject, provided you don't hide precious informations.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Thus he's bound to make the occasional error - like thinking NH rugby is superior.

But, it is !

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Journeyman
I guessed as much, you are at least willing to explain your anti League view.

Hey, Journeyman, no one is really anti L***** here, we are just joking about it ?

I'am anti-S***** though and I never joke about this.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Journeyman
...your thread name is "Rugby" and that includes League.

In France, the word Rugby is limited to this strange game played by 15 players. L***** is called "XIII" or "Game by thirteen".

[finbar]

Originally posted by Journeyman
I guessed as much, you are at least willing to explain your anti League view. I understand this "finbar" is your friend, but the immature way he insults it got on my nerves and I finally posted my disapproval, and I'm not surprised he avoids addressing me on the issue. I understand that its your opinion but why be silly about it?

You have bumped into what is probably our tenth consecutive thread, Journeyman. Our basic aim, from the outset, was to prattle about rugby union and have fun, with the emphasis on fun. We take the p*ss out of just about everything - including each other, most other sports, and even rugby itself sometimes.

Frankly, I'm not interested in debating the relative merits of the codes. I've done it enough in my life, including in the very early days of our threads. I find rugby league a limited, one-dimensional game. It doesn't interest me. I'm passionate about rugby, as are most of the regular contributors to this thread - who happen, also, to varying degrees, not to like rugby league. If you think that's unfair to rugby league, there's nothing we can do about it. If you have a problem with the way we take the p*ss out of rugby league - and we all do it - there's nothing we can do about that either.

[Havak]

I actually considered used that line but opted for communicating by letter. It's slower, y'see.

Your line was much funnier, trust me.

so Eddie has 22 fit players left from which to choose his team of 22.

The ultimate solution to a selection dilemma there I think.

Who's the ref? Hopefully he will send off James and be done with it.

Paddy O’Brien. God help us it’s the senior Kiwi ref himself. He has had chances to deal with James before and hasn’t.

He also helmed last Lions test so I’m sure you will understand my reservations.

Pity Tamerlin though as France have Mr McHugh (but at least he speaks the local language).

I give Tamerlin leeway that I wouldn't give you

No worries. Tamerlin is a nicer guy than me anyway.

You are right, of course, but you think it would be happening without League leading the way? I doubt it.

It’s way too hypothetical really. Without League providing the Professional market place Union might have modernised quicker than it has as well – or if you prefer League in many ways could have held Union back rather than helped it. It is all ‘ifs’ and ‘maybes’.

I understand that its your opinion but why be silly about it?

Silly? All I have done is said I don’t like League. And it’s true. I am genuinely sorry if that causes offence but I cannot change it.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
The betting comp is still alive, we just have to get our acts together in time.

SA should probably get at least a 15 point start, what do you think?

Originally posted by Havak
Strangely you are out of sync with current SH thinking – see here

Eddie is talking crap. Rugby union is about being unpredictable and ready for anything. This is one of its main appeals. It sounds like he wants to turn our game into gridiron or something!

Originally posted by Journeyman
This bickering is not good, your thread name is "Rugby" and that includes League.

No it doesnt. Everyone else who posts in this thread knows that it is Rugby Union we are here to discuss, and they like it that way. We have humored you for now, but if you persist in talking about a game that we view as an abomination, you will find yourself being ignored.

Have a nice day.