Rugby - One game to rule them all

[finbar]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk

Dear old Andy Capp!

Just a pity he played the wrong game!

[finbar]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
I think the ABs were more than lucky to get a draw. They played like they knew they were weaker, almost never attempting to attack but kicking far instead.

That's interesting. Against England, it was the opposite. I wonder if bringing Mehrtens into the team caused the difference?

I think the rule about fallen ball when trying to kick is - if the kicker started running, then there must be a scrum. If he didn't start running yet, then he can place the ball again.

That makes sense. It also explains what happened in the S12 game when the wind blew the ball off the tee and a scrum was awarded. The kicker had obviously already started to run in. If another player had been steadying the ball against the wind, everything would have been all right.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
I heard about that. Apparently the ball fell off the tee, he picked it up to run with it, but the ref called a scrum. What laws govern that situation? Does anyone know?

The law on this subject is pretty simple, when the ball falls from its tee, the kicker can put the ball again on the tee provided he has not started the movement that will lead to the kick, in the later case the player can only kick the ball and try to score the penalty. François Gelez had concentrated himself a few meters away from the ball and made its first step towards the ball when it fell from the tee, he should have kicked it anyway.

[Havak]

At times, the centres seemed to be playing as flankers.

Cohen is becoming a real predator. When I first saw him I thought him slow and ungainly. Might have got that one wrong. It’s a shame S-D did not get to show his real advantage – raw pace. If you can trawl up a copy of England-Barbarians from May you will see what Clive hopes he will become for England at test level.

I’m glad you picked the centres there. I was telling someone this morning that Tindall in particular was looking to drive the ball into your defence and set the ruck. It must have been game plan – but why???

Outnumbered and he still goes down fighting! General Havak Custer rides again!

Being outnumbered has never worried me. I have to keep the NH faith.

At how many restarts did we knock on, I wonder.

I’d like to see that stat. Quite a few I suspect.

I thought he was far superior to Gregan, showing much more initiative and variety

Perhaps most tellingly he was somewhat ‘naughtier’ as well? It was still stupid of him to put hands in your scrum though, he must have thought Honiss was the other side? His passing to hand was vastly improved on the NZ game, but then the forwards were giving him plenty of comfortable possession as well – he seemed to have more time than he got against NZ?

Where was the attitude the week before?

And there I think you have it – it was obvious by it’s absence. I don’t know how Eddie can counter it?

I'm not sure whether the problem is Eddie, the coaching staff, or both.

I couldn’t hazard a guess – but it is something they need to diagnose and cure it that is the case. It is not something silly like new sized balls the last season is it? I know the NH lads had a hard time adjusting to the slightly larger (yes really) balls they used in Aussie last summer.

Did I claim otherwise? In fact, it was our professionalism - in every sense of the word - that got us so close on the scoreboard.

I was just getting a pre-emptive strike in.

that you need a good SH type in the management team

I’m open to the idea. Know anyone it is worth us grabbing?

"It's a dark science".

Is that a mixed metaphor? An art can be ‘dark’ but shouldn’t a science be ‘complex’?

After the ball has gone? It's quite a different matter when the ball is somewhere nearby. Then, it can be claimed that you were aiming for the ball but missed.

It’s naughtier for sure – but it will happen if the player in question feels a clear message should be sent. And you know the player in this case occasionally feels quite strongly about sending such messages.

How did you rate Kay, his partner in the engine room. He is a very athletic lock, covers ground well and loves to carry ball up. Strangely on Saturday Jonno kept driving ball up the channel.

Either everyone was wearing the wrong studs or there was something wrong with the surface. But -
on TV anyway - it looked all right.

There must have been a lot more moisture in it than there appeared.

The problem with Mr Capp is that even if the game were Rugby not soccer it would also be L*****.

I wonder if bringing Mehrtens into the team caused the difference?

He whined at them so much they didn’t want to go anywhere near him perhaps?

If another player had been steadying the ball against the wind, everything would have been all right.

We live and learn eh?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
About the three AB players sent off I just can say the referee's decisions were justified and Christian Cullen's obstruction could have even been associated with a penalty try for France.

Thats a shame. Three yellow cards is inexcusable IMO.

Originally posted by finbar
Under all the circumstances - the squad picked, and so on - I'd call it a successful tour. It has been, basically, an investment in the future.

I totally agree. But there will always be hand-wringing from the NZ public when the ABs lose, no matter what the circumstances.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Thats a shame. Three yellow cards is inexcusable IMO.

What do you think about the fact the yellow cards were all distributed in the first half thus establishing a record ?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


What do you think about the fact the yellow cards were all distributed in the first half thus establishing a record ?

I always thought it would be the South Africans who would set that one...

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Cohen is becoming a real predator. When I first saw him I thought him slow and ungainly. Might have got that one wrong.

I recall him from before but I can't remember which occasion. Did he play against us last year? Or come off the bench? Whatever, he didn't make a huge impression. Predator's a good word. Very strong, very quick.

I’m glad you picked the centres there. I was telling someone this morning that Tindall in particular was looking to drive the ball into your defence and set the ruck. It must have been game plan – but why???

Mighty fine question. That's what I thought your forwards, et al, were for. It really just removes an attacking option from the arsenel. As Tamerlin said on the other thread, a centre should be able to cover defence as well as attack. My idea of the classic centre is someone like Timmy Horan at his peak.

It was still stupid of him to put hands in your scrum though, he must have thought Honiss was the other side?

Or he just took his chances with a professional foul. The Wallabies had the momentum, they weren't far from the line.

His passing to hand was vastly improved on the NZ game, but then the forwards were giving him plenty of comfortable possession as well – he seemed to have more time than he got against NZ?

I thought it was a far superior performance to what he showed against the ABs. He put himself into the game more, his passing was better - essentially, he was dictating. Of course, he had the advantage of 63% of the possession, but he utilised it. The problems - so to speak - arose after the ball had left his hands. I'm not sure how much he's to blame for that because I don't know whose responsibility it is to decide the options.

And there I think you have it – it was obvious by it’s absence. I don’t know how Eddie can counter it?

Well, something lifted them. I can't believe it was just the challenge of England at Twickenham. Who knows what's going on behind the scenes? Maybe the ridiculous injury toll and the parallels with last year's tour had been getting to them.

There are all sorts of theories being thrown around here - that Eddie has relied for too long on the Brumbie complexion he brought to the job with him; meaning support staff, reliance on certain players, and, most importantly, the Brumbie ethos of the team (players, coach, staff, etc) being one unit, making decisions together, and so on. This is part of that Brumbie mentality I've described before - all for one, one for all, united against all outsiders. I suspect those who support this theory are, in fact, wielding a stick against the Brumbies, and there are lots of people here, with very big sticks, ready to wield them at the first opportunity.

I suspect the problem has been a combination of injuries, poor form - with the injuries requiring out-of-form players to be picked - and several of the key players of relatively recent times reaching their use-by date in international footy. For example, Matt Burke is in the team for his goal-kicking; Dan Herbert was close to being dropped earlier this season until one great game saved him; and Patricio Noriega doesn't do enough and gives away far too many penalties. Add to that - Wendell Sailor is keeping a seat warm for a winger who can play rugby; Stirling Mortlock has been playing in a different position every week; and George Gregan still thinks he's playing behind a high-class pack.

I think we're due for a clean out - not en massse, but in certain key areas involving established Wallaby names - and I think the embarrassment of this tour will ensure that it happens. Eddie is publicly claiming progress, but I think that's PR.

I’m open to the idea. Know anyone it is worth us grabbing?

Kafer's there, he would be ideal. How many years left on his playing contract?

Is that a mixed metaphor? An art can be ‘dark’ but shouldn’t a science be ‘complex’?

I suppose it depends how literal we want to be. An art can also be complex. Poido was obviously opting for the imagery.

How did you rate Kay, his partner in the engine room. He is a very athletic lock, covers ground well and loves to carry ball up. Strangely on Saturday Jonno kept driving ball up the channel.

I saw Kay, but nothing really stood out. The locks seemed almost to cancel each other out in a way. They all did useful things.

[Andydog]

I saw the AB France Game. Tamerlin and LDiCesare, your forwards certainly dominated. The French scrum was superb. Our forwards generally only just held their own. We hardly ever had good go-forward ball - we are certainly missing Jack, McCaw and Maxwell. We didn't use our centre or wingers nearly enough.

Also, we are back to having real problems in the lineouts. We were lucky not to have been hammered - saved by a bit of individual brilliance from Tana. Just as well we have a good defensive game.

As for Jonah, he wouldn't be in my team at all. Yes he scored a couple in the England game, but he isn't into the action nearly enough - too sluggish on defence and not looking for enough work on attack. And the pressure that Cleric put him under led to simple handling errors. By comparison Howlett is far far better.

The ref didn't have a good game either - he missed about 3 blatant forward passes by the French, and was too harsh in his sin binning. Sending off Meeuws for a back slap? Come on.

So all in all a disapointing game. We played much better the week before.

[Havak]

Predator's a good word. Very strong, very quick.

I think he came off the bench, Luger and Healey started on the wings last time out IIRC. He had personal problems this time last year if I have the timings right (his father was attacked outside a night club and died from the injuries a few weeks later – naturally the boys head was affected). Cohen has been a shoe-in since the six nations this year though and only injury will cost him that place for the foreseeable future.

It really just removes an attacking option from the arsenel

Good point. Tindall removed himself from the attack consistently. In fact the only creativity in attack came when our wings linked up I think? The more I think about it the more I would like to see a re-jig of our back line. There may be a Tigers bias (as I am picking the players I see in form) but Stimpson at full back I think – much more solid for the Boks biff machine. Robinson on the wing where he can relax and run properly . Simpson-Daniel at inside centre maybe as his fast hands and feet might work well there. And call in Ollie Smith at outside centre, he is a much more potent threat going forward than Tindall.

So two more Tigers in the starting line up. No bias there then.

Or he just took his chances with a professional foul. The Wallabies had the momentum, they weren't far from the line.

That might be being too kind to Matt. He does have brain-fades at times.

I'm not sure how much he's to blame for that because I don't know whose responsibility it is to decide the options.

I suspect Greenwood is forcing them from inside centre. He made some real howlers – the crossfield kick down Larkham’s throat for example.

No wonder Tigers shipped him out years ago.

I can't believe it was just the challenge of England at Twickenham. Who knows what's going on behind the scenes?

Well there is no doubt that there is bad blood between the teams. It was noticeable how both camps strived to be very nice after the game this time? If you watch the replay of that ‘try’ again from two years ago you will spot Matt Dawson shaking his fist and mouthing some very interesting words at your players. He wasn’t the only one That led to accusations of ‘arrogance’ (quite amusing if you think about it) and festering ill will that has lasted pretty much ever since. I can quite believe they can raise their game for us, but whether that is explanation enough? As you say only the camp knows for sure.

there are lots of people here, with very big sticks, ready to wield them at the first opportunity.

I think success breeds this. And Brumbies, whether we like it or not, have been very successful in the last few seasons.

I think we're due for a clean out - not en masse, but in certain key areas involving established Wallaby names - and I think the embarrassment of this tour will ensure that it happens. Eddie is publicly claiming progress, but I think that's PR.

Well thus far the Ireland game let you down. There was no lack of credit from last Saturday and that shouldn’t be used as a stick to beat them with. A poor game against Italy would be fatal however – but lets face it that will not happen.

Kafer's there, he would be ideal. How many years left on his playing contract?

I think he is due to re-negotiate this season. From what I gather he is fairly happy here, and I suspect unlike Pat he has got over his Wallaby itch at 30. I’d happily surrender him to England if it helps. Send Pat back to tigers and I’ll be doubly happy!

Poido was obviously opting for the imagery.

Frankenstiens lab?

I saw Kay, but nothing really stood out. The locks seemed almost to cancel each other out in a way. They all did useful things.

That’s fair enough. I was hoping you noticed how he picked your weak link in the replacement hooker and pounced on it?

The ref didn't have a good game either - he missed about 3 blatant forward passes by the French

Nor did he understand the offside laws from the little I saw (4 mins of ‘highlights’). I’ll let Tamerlin and LiDiCesare comment on which team they thought was encroaching there?

So we had one ref raining yellows and one issuing endless ‘final’ warnings. Nice to see good consistency in the refereeing then?

Wales are the last opponents for NZ then? They will hit you very hard in the pack – and offer very little anywhere else. I suspect you might put 50 on them.

Hold on two bits of trivia have popped into my head – firstly Josh scored two tries against Gloucester (not bad cover for when Backy and Moody are missing eh?). Secondly Jonno has an NZ U-21 shirt in his attic. Tigers farmed him to a season of NPC way back when he was a teenager and those canny Kiwis used the “if you are here you are a Kiwi” clause so popular at the time. He played (and beat I believe) Australia U-21 wearing the black. He waited some time to repeat that (RWC 95).

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Andydog
We were lucky not to have been hammered...

You are right !

Just as well we have a good defensive game.

This has saved the AB from the flood, a really good defence.

And the pressure that Clerc put him under led to simple handling errors.

Vincent Clerc is a very promising young player coming from my dear old Stade Toulousain and he has muzzled Jonah "terror" Lomu.

Jonah Lomu is becoming less and less surprising as the players learn how to counter him.

The ref didn't have a good game either - he missed about 3 blatant forward passes by the French...

I think he has missed fouls commited by both sides, AB decoy runners, at least two turned scrums (the ball should have been handed to France), one or two forward passes by each team, etc. (yes Finbar, "etc" is also used in France). Not very convincing, as every SH referee...

...and was too harsh in his sin binning. Sending off Meeuws for a back slap? Come on.

I don't agree with you, I think the sanctions were justified, Christian Cullen could have even been red carded and a penalty try could have been given to France.

I must admit Olivier Magne could have been sin binned in the second half for a rucking on a AB player. He exhibited such an innocent face when the ref called him...

[The Mad Monk]

Better, finbar?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Better, finbar?

The ball has THE correct shape, I think Finbar will be OK !

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
his father was attacked outside a night club and died from the injuries a few weeks later – naturally the boys head was affected

I remember reading about that. Sad.

Tindall removed himself from the attack consistently.

Leaving aside the late hit on Larkham and the subsequent 3 points.

In fact the only creativity in attack came when our wings linked up I think?

That's about right. On the whole, the ball reached a speedster in a fairly ad hoc fashion and then it was on.

So two more Tigers in the starting line up. No bias there then.

I'll take your word for all those changes because I don't know. Do you think your backs practise together with your forwards? Do they rehearse plays? You can see the ABs and the Wallabies all getting into position preparing for their plays (even if some of the apparent starting points are blinds in themselves). I never get that impression with England.

Well there is no doubt that there is bad blood between the teams.

I suspect some of it might be a hangover from the Lions tour.

Well thus far the Ireland game let you down. There was no lack of credit from last Saturday and that shouldn’t be used as a stick to beat them with. A poor game against Italy would be fatal however – but lets face it that will not happen.

Fair point about Ireland, but the Pumas game was abysmal rugby. Yes, the Pumas did their best to drag everything down to their level, but it really was crap. And the reality is that only their defence and passion kept them in the England game. A team with only 37% of possession in a game has been well and truly stuffed somewhere on the field - if not in a number of places. I assume we will play the babies against the Italians. I can't see any other purpose to the game. Playing the best we have and creaming them will be meaningless. Playing the best we have and struggling will be death. Give the babies a chance to show what they've got.

Send Pat back to tigers and I’ll be doubly happy!

With that young Springbok now at the Brumbies, I suspect Pat Howard's days are numbered. Tuquiri turned down the Brumbies because of their back line strength and potential for lack of opportunity.

That’s fair enough. I was hoping you noticed how he picked your weak link in the replacement hooker and pounced on it?

At that point, I was in despair. Fair enough, Freier had to come on to replace Jeremy Paul, but why did his appearance have to coincide with so many lineouts? And as for sending on Matt Giteau in the crucial closing minutes? The kid was on a hiding to nothing when Chris Whitaker - experienced, cool head, great passer of the ball - was left sitting on the bench.

He played (and beat I believe) Australia U-21 wearing the black. He waited some time to repeat that (RWC 95).

When would that have been? Around 15 years ago? I must look up which - if any - of the Wallabies he played against.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin




The ball has THE correct shape, I think Finbar will be OK !

But I suspect, as Havak pointed out, Andy is probably playing L*****!