Rugby - One game to rule them all

[Havak]

I don't know if I'll go so far as to agree that their coach is teaching them to tackle illegally.

I'm not clear what you are saying here?

They quite definitely do tackle illegally as the shoulder charge is completely illegal and any tackle without an attempt to use your arms is also categorically illegal.
Any 'tackle' off the ball is also illegal. Take those three aspects away from last Saturday and you have removed the Bok contribution to the game effectively.

This is endemic in the way they play so are you saying rather than being coached into them it's a natural consequence of the way South African rugby is played?

Earlier teams have certainly been physical but I can't remember a time they were so overty illegal.

As it stands it is much closer to murderball than rugby (ever played that?)

I strongly suspect unless they address it the South Africans will have problems keeping 15 men on the pitch in the next 12 months.

God help them when they come up against a Lander or a David McHugh as referee.

[Andydog]

I'm not clear what you are saying here?

They quite definitely do tackle illegally as the shoulder charge is completely illegal and any tackle without an attempt to use your arms is also categorically illegal.
Any 'tackle' off the ball is also illegal.

Aye, they were doing all that, I just have difficulty in accepting that the saffees are being taught to do all this 'systematically' as you put it. I can't for the life of me imagine the saffee coach saying to the youngsters "Right lads, we ain't gonna win this one, therefore here's how you take em out!"

I think it is more likely that the coach told them in the changing rooms before the game not to be afraid to get physical, or something along those lines. The point I was trying to make is the lack of experience lead to the youngsters taking this too literally, and look what happened.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Serious stuff however – the butchers bill from last weekend is worse than I thought. Neil Back is out for several weeks with a broken cheekbone and Lewis Moody had to have a shoulder operation this week and is out for a month or so.

I can understand the problem with the cheekbone, but how did Moody's shoulder come about? I didn't see what caused it.

A lot of it is down to the character of the captain of course (Finbar groans loudly).

*blinks awake* Hm? Pardon?

It s a strange duality in some of them. Am I being unfair Finbar?

It's hard to generalise. I'd've thought that an Australian rugby fan going all the way to Twickenham would be a rugby fan. Unless, of course, they're an Earl's Court (or wherever the gathering place is for them these days) p*sshead, in which case I would disown them regardless of where they were and what they were doing. The thing is, as I've said before, there are f*ckwit supporters in all countries.

I do think Tamerlin and LDiCesare should get themselves to OZ. You have to visit the place, and you could call in on Finbar in Sydney. He is very grateful these threads were not very active before I went there.

Tamerlin and LDiCesares would be most welcome here, I'm sure they know that. As would you too have been welcome if I'd realised you were the armchair socialist that you are. In fact, you should get your backside down here for the RWC. And bring Mrs Havak. In further fact, I've just come home from a splendid dinner out with MOBIUS and MS MOBIUS.

I absolutely love it – Tamerlin has once again gone for the southern jugular on the non competition for the ball at the set pieces. Allez mon ami!

*blinks awake again* Hm? What? Pardon?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Andydog
Aye, they were doing all that, I just have difficulty in accepting that the saffees are being taught to do all this 'systematically' as you put it. I can't for the life of me imagine the saffee coach saying to the youngsters "Right lads, we ain't gonna win this one, therefore here's how you take em out!"

I think it is more likely that the coach told them in the changing rooms before the game not to be afraid to get physical, or something along those lines. The point I was trying to make is the lack of experience lead to the youngsters taking this too literally, and look what happened.

The thing is, Andydog, the Boks did exactly the same thing against us in their Tri Nations match here this year. Thug tactics. They were lucky to escape with a single red card. Their full back deliberately tackled Chris Latham while he was in the air, slammed him headfirst into the ground, and escaped with a yellow. The tactics aren't evident in their S12 matches - Butch James' illegal tackling aside - so it's not as if they're brought up to play that way. In the return Tri Nations match at Ellis Park, there was - by comparison - less thuggery and more rugby.

I have to agree with Havak - I think it's a deliberate, bloodyminded policy. I don't think, either, that it's a case of "we're not going to win this one, so let's do some damage". I believe it's their definition of a team trademark - we're rough and tough - only it's hamfisted in the extreme. And both self-defeating and stupid, because they've already been penalised into oblivion for doing it, but they continue to do it. And if they continue to do it - and, given their coach's expressed attitude that he has no problem with their approach to the England game, it seems they will continue to do it - they will continue to be penalised into oblivion.

And as for an experienced player telling the younger players to cool down - the Bok skipper, an experienced player, is one of the worst offenders.

I think it's a tragedy. They have some potentially very fine young players who are being sacrificed for a trademark.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
So you disagree with Nick then?

Not at all, I was just pointing at the fact that one of the finest coach in the world shared the same point of view as mine on this subject.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
*blinks awake* Hm? Pardon?

Menteur !

Tamerlin and LDiCesares would be most welcome here, I'm sure they know that. As would you too have been welcome if I'd realised you were the armchair socialist that you are. In fact, you should get your backside down here for the RWC.

Unfortunately, such a trip is largely behond my means.

And bring Mrs Havak.

Without Havak ?

In further fact, I've just come home from a splendid dinner out with MOBIUS and MS MOBIUS.

The drawer ?

*blinks awake again* Hm? What? Pardon?

Hypocrite !

[Havak]

how did Moody's shoulder come about? I didn't see what caused it.

Apart from the fact it happened very early on, and off the ball (surprise?) I’m not entirely sure myself.

The thing is, as I've said before, there are f*ckwit supporters in all countries.

That’s certainly true. I’m sure I spotted some of my favourite kind though. When you were so far ahead early in the second half and they panned the crowd there were patches of (free) yellow scarf wearing chaps with their backs to the game entusiastically seeking out the nearest England fans presumably telling them how great Australians are. It mad eme nostalgic for Melbourne and Sydney (we didn’t see any Aussie fans in Brisbane until the bar well after the game).

Guys rather like your cricket loving fellow NSW resident perhaps who in that other thread simply cannot grasp Cricket is not a big sport here. Though for your benefit Finbar I will admit you are doing a job on the boys again.

In fact, you should get your backside down here for the RWC. And bring Mrs Havak

At some point I’ll be back, and it may not even coincide with sport. Unfortunately RWC seems unlikely at this stage. And we aren’t that keen on Lions 05 in NZ either (weather concerns). Maybe the next England pacific tour. The problem is the missus will not join a rugger tour. I have carefully cultivated an image of them being unsuitable for a lady and trying to reverse that would cause more trouble than I want.

On which note I have to say I am looking forward to next weekend. Staying at a friends near Perpignan from Friday then heading to Bezier for the game on the Sunday (and yes Tamerlin and LdiCesare I do know it is a long way away from there)

Oh and yes – best wishes to the ex-pat and partner.

and, given their coach's expressed attitude that he has no problem with their approach to the England game, it seems they will continue to do it - they will continue to be penalised into oblivion.

Finbar hit it here Andydog. As Straeuli could see no wrong it what they were doing it worried me that it is a coaching problem.

Not at all, I was just pointing at the fact that one of the finest coach in the world shared the same point of view as mine on this subject.

There is our answer Gentlemen – Tamerlin should coach the Boks.

Unfortunately, such a trip is largely behond my means.

Getting there is the expensive part. After that the exchange rates make it a very reasonable place to vacation in. Cheaper than going to Blackpool in fact.

So as for these misunderstood stereotypes Straeuli was talking about maybe he should read this.

tale of a skipper who needs banning?

Sky's rugby club is on tonight so it looks like I will get chance to see this violent assault that took out several players including their own Fly Half!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
There is our answer Gentlemen – Tamerlin should coach the Boks.

French with an Afrikaans accent? Good grief.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
There is our answer Gentlemen – Tamerlin should coach the Boks.

You want them to sink into oblivion, eh ?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
French with an Afrikaans accent? Good grief.

NOOOOOooooooo.... !!!!

Tamerlin waking up after a terrible nightmare.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


You want them to sink into oblivion, eh ?

At least you'd get to beat them with sticks. If they didn't beat you with sticks first.

[Tamerlin]

No more Internet connexion this week end as I'am moving to a new home in town.





I hope to be back Sunday evening.

[finbar]

One step ahead of les créanciers, huh?

[Journeyman]

This is some discussion thread, you're still going over the Boks case! No stone unturned, eh?

BTW, I'm typing this from the Hong Kong Airport , they seem to have free internet access here (well, no one has booted me out yet).

Finbar and Havak, you both live in Australia don't you? How many WC tickets did you manage to swipe up? I can't say I'm happy with that super early sell-off and time limit

[Andydog]

Originally posted by finbar

I have to agree with Havak - I think it's a deliberate, bloodyminded policy. I don't think, either, that it's a case of "we're not going to win this one, so let's do some damage". I believe it's their definition of a team trademark - we're rough and tough - only it's hamfisted in the extreme. And both self-defeating and stupid, because they've already been penalised into oblivion for doing it, but they continue to do it. And if they continue to do it - and, given their coach's expressed attitude that he has no problem with their approach to the England game, it seems they will continue to do it - they will continue to be penalised into oblivion.

Guys, think about what you're saying here. Nobody in their right mind is stupid enough to adopt such tactics, for precisely those reasons. Least of all a Springbok captain. In fact, this is a quote from Straeuli himself:

What do you hope to achieve against England?

RS: A win. That has to be our motivation and we believe we have players good enough to do so. There has to be massive improvement in our forward effort and I want to see more composure from our backs. The players are young and they have very little test experience. You only become experienced by playing.

So I don't know where you heard that he has 'no problem with their approach to the England game', perhaps you took this out of context? Anyway, no captain is going to stand up and admit to teaching 'thuggery tactics' after his team has just being penalised to a 50 point deficit.

And as for an experienced player telling the younger players to cool down - the Bok skipper, an experienced player, is one of the worst offenders.

Rudolf Straeuli? He's not that experienced, certainly not on the international scene. He doesn't have the maturity of Andre Venter.

Sorry chaps but you haven't convinced me. I think that the boks have a tendency to get very frustrated when they are loosing to a superior side, and there is nobody there to cool the team down. I agree that they are a rough and tough team, but not to the extreme that you're both suggesting.