Should East Europe countries be thankful to Soviet Union?

[Heresson]

Unlike for example Polish minority, these Russians never assimilated into culture and they still thinks Russia is superior

Poles didn't have to adapt to Lithuanian culture - it were Lithuanians to adapt Polish one.

As for USA< you are maybe true but Britain didn't wanted to handle EE to Soviets. They instead tried to get as much as possible and they agreed on some pact later with SU which saved Greece and Austria I believe from Soviet influence. They also tried to save Poland, but they weren't able to do so.

They haven't tried. Polish emigrational gouverment was waring them about the danger, but USA
and Britain were dumb enough to not listen to it.

Anyway Poland has many reasons to not be thankful to USSR - it took a half of Polish pre-war territory, almost exactly according to what they took with Hitler's agreement.It also reduced Poland to a vassal status. However, I thuink that Poland has more reasons to be thankful to USSR than to Britain or USA who were pretending that they defend Polish interest in the east,
having resigned of it in Teheran already. Also, it was USSR to force through bigger recompensates for Poland in the west (still smaller than eastern losses) than Britain and USA
wanted to give us. Not minding that our dear allies USA and Britain left for example the case of Lwów "to the goodwill of mister Stalin" - USSR attacked us, ate half of us and raped us,
but nothing more was expected from it. We expected some help from our western allies and we didn't get any - and it was a more sad thing.

Poland has always had to choose between Germany and Russia. The silly Poles choose neither and get carved up over and over again

that's about true when it comes to 1939; Hitler, in exchange for Gdañsk and alliance, oferred us entire Ukraine after a common war with USSR - theoretically if we agreed, we would have been much better off today than we are. Earlier USSR proposed us a common politics against
Balthic states - we said no as well, because of dumb docency.

Poland wasn't ally of SU. In fact in 30s it considered as more probable enemy for Soviets. Because at early 20s those peacefull people attacked Soviets and torn a part of territory belonged to Ukraine and Byelorussia, exact the same territories which Stalin returned to Ukraine and Byelorussia in 1939 after division of Poland. And btw, he presented nice part of those territories to Lithuania.

Young Soviet state at those time dreamed about world revolution - and it was it that wanted to dsestroy Poland, not the other way round. The mentioned territories didn't belong to Ukraine
or Byelorussia - their status wasn't yet settled and You had the same right to them as we did.
I emphasise that in 1939, before new deal with Hitler (in which influences in Lithuania were sold for part of Poland), it annected territories that never were object of Ukrainian. Byelorussian, of whoever's pretensions.

Polish Corridor.

By calling this territory this way, You're repeating nazi propaganda; these territories weren't a German territory carved out so that Poland had some seacoast, they were part of Polish province of Pomorze Gdañskie/Wschodnie that belonged to Poland before the partages, and it should be called like that - Eastern Pomerania.

How did Stalin return territories to the Ukraine, the Ukraine wasn't independant.

in fact it was for a while, before peacefull Soviet Union attacked it and despite Polish help, managed to annect it.

That acceptance set the scene for a very long period, almost 50 years, of peace in Europe. We should be thankful for that.

And should have we been thankfull to Milosevic because He was "bringing peace" to Kosovo?

[DanS]

"All Russian people, even the young, really, really believe that nazism was plague of XX century and that nothing could compares with nazism in scale of evilness."

I think the majority of Americans would take a larger view and think totalitarianism was the plague of XX century. This would include Facism and Communism, and would mention Hitler, Stalin, and Mao in one sentence.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Seeker
Russia is history's problem child.

Actually Germany is

[Arrian]

USSR attacked us, ate half of us and raped us,
but nothing more was expected from it. We expected some help from our western allies and we didn't get any - and it was a more sad thing.

This is why I cringe every time one of our (USA) politicians gets up and starts spouting all sorts of flowery rhetoric about how we're going to fight for freedom and democracy. Because, even if we do some good, it will fall well short of the EXPECTATIONS of those who listened to our bull****.

In short, Poland was mistreated by the USSR far more than by the West, but because the West made promises it could not/would not keep, the West takes even more blame than the country that "attacked, ate half, and raped" Poland. From the point of view of an American, that's really frustrating.

-Arrian

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian


This is why I cringe every time one of our (USA) politicians gets up and starts spouting all sorts of flowery rhetoric about how we're going to fight for freedom and democracy. Because, even if we do some good, it will fall well short of the EXPECTATIONS of those who listened to our bull****.

In short, Poland was mistreated by the USSR far more than by the West, but because the West made promises it could not/would not keep, the West takes even more blame than the country that "attacked, ate half, and raped" Poland. From the point of view of an American, that's really frustrating.

-Arrian

Arrian, When did we say we, the US, were fighting for Poland in WWII? The Poles did not change any position to their detriment because of anything we said.

It was the Brits that asked them to stand firm against Hitler. This, when it was too late to oppose Hitler militarily without getting what we got, six years of death and destruction on a scale never before seen in human history.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson
Poles didn't have to adapt to Lithuanian culture - it were Lithuanians to adapt Polish one.

Hmmm…wait a minute, it could be only one man…that’s right!!!…. Heresson is here
Where have you been so long? Perhaps was planning how exactly you will execute me?


I will not argue about 1921. From past experience I know that it's useless.

in fact it was for a while, before peacefull Soviet Union attacked it and despite Polish help, managed to annect it.

Was it Soviet Union? Do you remember when it was? Perhaps it was young Soviet state, perhaps it was at the same time when 'borders weren't settled'? Perhaps it was in chaos of civil war, a war between Red and White? And if you think that White government was legal government, I don’t see why the same couldn’t be said about Red.

[Serb]

Originally posted by DanS
I think the majority of Americans would take a larger view and think totalitarianism was the plague of XX century. This would include Facism and Communism, and would mention Hitler, Stalin, and Mao in one sentence.

“And you could be my brother,
No matter you see only Black or White”
M. Jackson (Serb’s remake)

[Arrian]

Ned,

I'm aware that in the case of WWII Poland, it was the Brits (and French?) that made promises. I was using it as an example of promises causing expectations. I did not mean to imply that the USA broke promises to Poland.

We do make promises, however, and often claim the moral highground when (I feel) it is inappropriate to do so. In general, I think righteous rhetoric is dangerous, because it gets people's hopes up about what we're doing. Then, when we prove to be less than perfect, it's a let down.

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Serb
“And you could be my brother,
No matter you see only Black or White?
M. Jackson (Serb’s remake)

I fail to see anything meaningful to differentiate Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, and Soviet Russia in the terms of this thread.

[Saras]

Serb, I'll get to your half-truths and blatant lies tomorrow. Most of what you say about my country is not true.

Right now I keep my fingers crossed for you guys - I sure hope the theater situation will work out bloodlessly.

Augi - numesk gaza su savo vokieciu gyrimu

[Sonic]

Heresson...

I've talked about current days, not about medieval period. In current days it was Polish minority which was assimilated into Lithuanian culture, not vice-versa obviously.

Serb... I also do not know why I am still discussing with you because it seems your prejustice, just like true nazi's one, is unchangeble. However, I will better will be the one who has last word since than it would mean that I was right and you can no longer argue against me. Probably this won't last forever anyways.

Well, answers to your post.

About Russians who left - most of them left in the first years of independence, mostly because it was Soviet government who sent them to Lithuanian SSR to work, they had all their "homeland" (family, friends, etc.) somewhere else. They considered themselves Russians from Russia, not Lithuanian Russians, thus they left. Current 8% is very stable however. No one is pushed to leave the country and everybody has citizenship.

As for vandalism, German WW2 army graes are also being vandalised. It is very strange that you are claiming what you actually don't know. Saying "vandals leaves plates with nazi slogans but removes ones with SOviet slogans" is absolute nonsense (and I doubt you can even possibly know what vandals does/doesn't in Lithuania). Ones who steals metal plates because of value of metal (and that is probably 70% of vandals) doesn't probably even reads what is written on those plates. Other 30% of vandals would be various drunks, who also doesn't care what to destroy.

As for Latvia, I don't think this is some sort of nazism. Various anti-immigration policies are set in all countries. You wouldn't be happy yourself if Chechenyans would make 50% of Russian people for example. Because those Russians moved to Latvia at a time Latvia was annexed and couldn't control it's borders, they are able to recognise them as illegal immigrants. Anyway, Latvia did granted citizenship for Russians who lived there before Soviet Union (and their decendants), so you can't call that actual nazism against Russian people. This is more like de-Sovietization for me. By the way, as far as I remember you are Latvian yourself, why are you bashing Latvia so much then (or am I mixing you with someone?).

As for Belarus, this is probably because both Byelorussians and Russians are Slavic and they both are Orthodox. Same religion and ethnical group makes it more able for two nations to live together. However, everywhere where two nations makes about 30-70 percent of population each and both nations are from different ethnical groups and religion, tension will always happen. Look to Israel as a very good example. However, Israel can't/shouldn't remove citizenship from Palestinians, since Palestinians lived there before Jews moved in (I mean the new Israel of course). However this is another discution - I don't want to start yet another Israeli/Palestinian debate. I'll just say that for example in Latvia, all Russians who didn't got citizenship moved in in last 50 years. They did never had Latvian citizenship before, nor their parents/grandparents/great grandparents did.

As for SU lagers, there were many of them. Also, USSR was in quite a good geographical position to need no concentration camps - USSR was huge itself and in SIberia climate was very cold, thus Soviets just exiled people there. Many of them died there, probably same percent as in concentration camps if not more.

Some retals to your insults on Lithuania and my opinion:
Your words: Lithuanians shouldn’t be thankful to SU for liberation from nazim, because we in Lithuania prefer to be nazi then commies
My answer: True

Your words: because when were under nazi, there were capitalism and economy was great which means that we would be richer
My answer: Half true. Not because we are greedy as you make to think from your words obviously, but everybody would like to live in a rich country not a poor one. If somebody offer you to have the same economy as in western Europe for example, I doubt you'd refuse. And obviously capitalism is better than communism (socialism, because there were never true communism in USSR)

Your words: And Hitler didn’t hurt Lithuanians, because our race is pure. So, all we have to do is to burn Jews, Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Beylorussians and other “human crap” who lived in Lithuania in death camps, but for this we could enjoin the benefits of capitalism
My answer: absolute bul****. Never said anything of wha you wrote above, it is just your pure imagination. I am not a neo-nazi - something what you aren't able to understand. If I would be neo-nazi, I would just admit that and wouldn't even argue.

How could you support deportation of whole nation (Crimeans) because of some criminals? It is beyond me. Yet another prove that you are a nazi.

By calling you nazi, I don't mean that you are German nazi, but that you are Russian fascist, thinking that Russians are superior nation. Most of your posts indicates that. Your hatred on other countries like Eastern Europe or Caucassian ones, your opinion that everyone should be thankful to you (saying that EE should be thankful to USSR is the same as to say that Jews should be thankful to Hitler), your tryings to convince that everything what Russians does is right, your frequent insults and threats until Ming told you stop that.

Sarai, kas del Vokieciu tai as ju negiriu, o tik lyginu su Sovietu Sajunga, uz kuria trecias reichas tikrai buvo pranasesnis daugeliu aspektu.

[Felch]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I fail to see anything meaningful to differentiate Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, and Soviet Russia in the terms of this thread.

Fascist Italy was in the junior varsity for evil. But yeah, your point holds true.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras
Serb, I'll get to your half-truths and blatant lies tomorrow. Most of what you say about my country is not true.

I will not fight with you
...and be happy if it's only a half-thruths and my misguidings.

Right now I keep my fingers crossed for you guys - I sure hope the theater situation will work out bloodlessly.

Thanks
shame to sonic who keep his fingers crossed for terrorists and who made an attempt to justify them.

[Wilderess]

Originally posted by Serb
Obviously you are ‘flower child’ or member of “Green peace”

No, I’m not a flower child nor a member of Greenpeace. Can it be possible that people in Russia don’t know about the environment and nature catastrophes accomplished by the Soviet Union? The Aral Sea , for example?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian
Ned,

I'm aware that in the case of WWII Poland, it was the Brits (and French?) that made promises. I was using it as an example of promises causing expectations. I did not mean to imply that the USA broke promises to Poland.

We do make promises, however, and often claim the moral highground when (I feel) it is inappropriate to do so. In general, I think righteous rhetoric is dangerous, because it gets people's hopes up about what we're doing. Then, when we prove to be less than perfect, it's a let down.

-Arrian

There are two problems here in making promises: first when one cannot fulfill them and second when the American people or one's allies do not support fulfilling them.

The Brits promise to the Pole prior to WWII is an example of a promise the Brits could not fulfill.

Roosevelts promise to support the Brits was an example of the latter because 76% of the American people were against getting involved in the European war - that is, until Pearl Harbor.

Another example would be Bush I's promise to the Kurds to support them in their revolt against Saddam. He couldn't do it because of our allies.

Thus, a president or prime minister should be very careful about making promised that cannot be fulfilled for one reason or another.

I agree with you Arrian.