Should East Europe countries be thankful to Soviet Union?

[Wilderess]

This sad thread has been a shock to read.

It’s not news that eyes see and ears hear what the mind tells them to see and hear, and the mind can be manipulated to think what it is told. Man can look at an ugly black table and sigh: ”Oh I like that white chair, it’s SO beautiful!” if someone with authority tells him/her to see a beautiful white chair.

Do all the Russian people, even the young, really, really believe that the Soviet supremacy was loved by the neighbouring countries?

The Soviet system was efficient in one aspect in addition to creating environmental catastrophes by reckless pollution: they succeeded in manipulating the whole nation. It frightens me to think about it. A nation-wide hypnosis.

[The Vagabond]

I've got the impression that this thread somehow underwent a strange twist that made us look advocates of Stalin and the Soviet system.

As far as I understand it, our actual intention was just to protest against the blind and despicable attempts of some posters here to present the Soviet Union as an exclusively negative phenomenon.

[Mihai]

Wow, I really didn’t expected so many replies.

Normaly I would be upset be the “****” reply from Serb, but I expected an emotional burst. Russians solders didn’t die by milions to eliberate East Europe, but to defeat those who attacked them (see Great Patriotic War). In the scenario were Germany had a complete victory the whole world would be worst. That doesn’t mean that we should be thankful to those who take our land (Bessarabia), delayed recognision of Romania’s change of side at August 23rd 1944 (while they take without fight thousand of prisoners and send them to Siberia even if the rest of the Romanian army fought side by side with Red Army), impose heavy retribution (300 milions $), and impose the communist regim (local – illegal – communist party numbered only 2,000 men).

Serb
I didn’t said that nazis were nice guys, but Soviet Russians were brutal occupants. If Russia is the enemy, those who fought against it, are considered heroes (regardless of their ideology). Monuments can be changed (how many statues of Stalin are still standing up in Russia?). However “about the deads, only good” – graves should be respectated. In my natal town there is a cemetery where are graves of solders killed in WWI (germans, austro-hungarians, turks and bulgars side by side with romanians and algerians). In the wost case they should send the bodies to Russia (not a nice thing anyway).

Bessarabia was part of Moldavia untill 1812 and the majority of the population was romanian. Or do you consider also that Finland and central Poland belong to Russia since those teritory were part of the tzarist Russia?

And don’t put ‘k’ in my name, please.

tinyp3nis
I like your nickname – It tells so much about you

We are worst now that in 1989, but even then we were worst that Finland. In Romania case, Ceausescu had this “good” idea to pay all the debts. Therefore we export anything we can sell (inclusive food – food became a problem for ordinary romanians in the last years of communism) and stop almost all imports (inclusive modern technology).

[Mihai]

Originally posted by Serb
1) Is it OK for people of Baltic States to hate ALL MODERN Russians for what communists done?

No, I really don't think they hate ALL of them.

2) Is it OK for people of Baltic States to teach their children in modern schools that all modern Russians are bandits, addicts and just "human crap"?

Just because a lituanian apolytener doesn't love russians, you think that they teach that in school?

3) Is it OK for government of Baltic States absolutely legally treat Russians living there as second grade people without civil rights?

You mean the Russian (and their descendants) that were bring in big numbers against the local population wish? I guess that most of the lituanians consider that those russian came with Red Army and should go back with it.

4) Is it OK for people of Baltic States to raze graves of Soviet soldiers and destroy monuments dedicated to people who fought vs. nazism?

As I said in my previous post, graves should be left alone, but they have the right to put/get down the monuments as they wish.

5) Is it OK for people of Baltic States to treat their Red army veterans who fought vs. nazism as crap, and at the same treat their nazi as heroes?

You say "they fought vs. nazi", they say "they fought for the occupant soviets"

6) Is it OK for people of Baltic States to create monuments dedicated to their nazi?

You mean dedicated to those who fought for the independence of the country?

[Serb]

I've got the impression that this thread somehow underwent a strange twist that made us look advocates of Stalin and the Soviet system.

We are evill commies for them and always will. nothing starange.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Arrian


Serb, that isn't a very good analogy. In your example, "S" is the USSR, and "G" is Nazi Germany, and I assume that the "teenagers" are the Eastern European states occupied by the USSR after the war. The way you write it, the kindly old USSR allowed the nasty teenagers to "live with him" and didn't even punish them or demand compensation. Sorry, but that just isn't analogous to real life.

Of course it don’t excuses, but I just think that Cold war should be taking into consideration when we talk about reasons of SU post-war actions. After all, SU was sneak attacked from territories of those countries and after war Stalin could be very worry that it could happen again in near future. I just think it’s worth to be noted here.

Finally, "U" and "B" may have gathered a "gang" (NATO, I assume you mean), but they didn't coerce the gang via military force.

Of course, but actually I don’t think Soviet gang was created only via military force, iirc there were government overthrows lead by local communists in those countries, and right after the war communists were very popular as most uncompromising resistance fighters during occupation. So, I guess more proper to say that they were coerce to stay in gang via military force (when after few years they realized that commies sucks and were trying to leave).

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I've got the impression that this thread somehow underwent a strange twist that made us look advocates of Stalin and the Soviet system.

As far as I understand it, our actual intention was just to protest against the blind and despicable attempts of some posters here to present the Soviet Union as an exclusively negative phenomenon.

Blind and despicable are the attempts to white wash the very dark side of the Soviet system.

No nation in the 20th century saw so many of it's own citizens murdered by their own government, except maybe Maoist China (is there a theme here?). I don't care how you try to dress that up. It is still a horror show.

Why do you expect the victims of the NKVD, KGB, and the gulag to thank you?

[Serb]

ENOUGH WITH THE NAME CALLING... especially you SERB. One more personal insult and somebody is going to get restricted.

Somebody? So, it wouldn’t be necessary me?
Ok, ok, as you wish.
btw, “pan” means “mister” on Polish and sure this guy knows this, considering how close he live to Poland and…
* whom am I trying to fool that it weren’t personal insults? *
Ok, I’ll turn my violence filter on.

NOW DISCUSS THIS LIKE ADULTS!

Sir… yes, Sir.
Note to self: Why I wasn’t banned long ago? I was doing my best to get free trip to Mingapulco.



p.s.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Serb


We are evill commies for them and always will. nothing starange.

No. You're Russians (mostly i think). Those of you who defend the Soviet record are evil commies. Somehow I doubt all Russians do that.

[Serb]

No names,

I don't know why you claimed again that in Lithuania Russians have no citizenship, etc.

As I said your government is lesser evil out of three, but it’s still evil. Or perhaps, you want to explain why (btw, in accordance with your data- 12% before independence and 8% today) 34% of Russians who lived in your country were running away from there and keep running away today, if they are not persecuted as you describe?

As for vandalism, there were of course some cases of vandalism against graves of red army soldiers, but not more than on other graves. People are mostly doing this because of metallic plates on gravestones which they wants to sell to junkyard.

And of course those scavengers left nazi slogans just for fun
I'll try to find this article for you.

Latvia would be automatically Russianised over a time despite of will of the people (including Russians). SImply there would be more mixed marrieges, Russian language would overrule Latvian in such families, after more tan half of people learned Russian radio/TV/newspapers would probably also start use Russian. Everybody would later use Russian everywhere.

So, you think that it’s ok that Latvian government start to persecute Russian minority, start to push them away out of country, because they (guys in government) took care about purity of their race? And you think that it isn’t soft form of nazism?

Same happened in Belarus for example.

And there are no tensions between Byelorussians and Russians, they live peacefully. They way your countries chose leads to violence.

As for Crimeans... Again, you can't kill whole nation because some of them were forced by nazis to do something.

Who was killing whole nation? This nation was DEPORTED, as precaution, a wartime measure, to prevent their further cooperation with enemy. You seem to don’t notice that USA and GB did the same and in accordance with your logic together with SU should be included in “the same as nazi” list.
Could you show me where in SU death camps with gas chambers and crematoriums to extermination of nationalities, the "factories of death" were located?

Lithuania however didn't fought for nazi side (just few people did), so it couldn't be used as an example here.

Oh really?
Then where all those SS legions were from? Or you think SS legion had only “few people”?

BTW, as I know understood, you are a nazi yourself.

You could call me a red ass commie, (which I’m not of course) because I think that communism is nowhere near more human ideology then nazim, but call me a nazi… .?

You just can't understand what I say and simply keep your prejustice against the Baltic States and some other countries, like Caucassian ones.

Blah… blah… blah…
First words said by you in this thread perfectly demonstrated what are you trying to say.
Let’s see what you said:
Lithuanians shouldn’t be thankful to SU for liberation from nazim, because we in Lithuania prefer to be nazi then commies, because when were under nazi, there were capitalism and economy was great which means that we would be richer. And Hitler didn’t hurt Lithuanians, because our race is pure. So, all we have to do is to burn Jews, Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Beylorussians and other “human crap” who lived in Lithuania in death camps, but for this we could enjoin the benefits of capitalism.

PS you are able not to reply to ths obviously if you want but that just would show your inability to discuss with me - your arguements already starts to repeat each other...

Actually I don’t know why I’m keeping answer your posts.

[Mihai]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
In many cases Eastern European countries also have their own dirty little secret, which is they enthusiastically participated in the attack on the Soviet Union and the holocaust through recruitment to the SS.

I think some of those countries got off lightly from the Sovs.

There wasn't a 'little' secret that Romania join Germnay in attacking SU because of the Bessarabia. If there were romanians in SS units, there must be in small numbers, because I never heard of that.

And I don't think we got off lightly.

[Serb]

Originally posted by notyoueither


No. You're Russians (mostly i think). Those of you who defend the Soviet record are evil commies. Somehow I doubt all Russians do that.

You will never understand us.

What do you think victims of NKVD, KGB, and gulags were Martians?
They were Russians, absolute majority of them were Russians, our ancestors (including my own) and we will never forget or forgive this because, it was done by Soviet system. However this Soviet system saved us, saved our 1000+ years olds civilization from total extermination. Because for us ("inferiour race") there was no place in nazi’s shining future other then be dead or be faceless slaves.
To make it more clearly for you:
it’s the same as- imagine that one guy is torturing you, that he cut off your hand, but later he saved you from more painful and terrible death. What would you think about this guy? Hate him that he made you invalid or thank him that he saved your life? I guess both, the same mess is our minds.

[notyoueither]

No Serb. Most victims were Ukrainian, Georgian, Byelorussian, Siberian, and on and on. By far. Remember them?

I think I understand Russians far more than you wish. Some of you want to hold on to some vestige of past glories. You want to hold on so much that you will excuse anything, you will defend almost anything. I also understand that not all Russians are Stalinists, and not all Russians are, or were Communists.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Mihai


There wasn't a 'little' secret that Romania join Germnay in attacking SU because of the Bessarabia. If there were romanians in SS units, there must be in small numbers, because I never heard of that.

That's true but did you know the SS were horrified by the cruelty of Rumanian progroms against the Jews? The Germans preferred a nice clean shooting or gassing.

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by Serb


You will never understand us.

What do you think victims of NKVD, KGB, and gulags were Martians?
They were Russians, absolute majority of them were Russians, our ancestors (including my own) and we will never forget or forgive this because, it was done by Soviet system. However this Soviet system saved us, saved our 1000+ years olds civilization from total extermination. Because for us ("inferiour race") there was no place in nazi’s shining future other then be dead or be faceless slaves.
To make it more clearly for you:
it’s the same as- imagine that one guy is torturing you, that he cut off your hand, but later he saved you from more painful and terrible death. What would you think about this guy? Hate him that he made you invalid or thank him that he saved your life? I guess both, the same mess is our minds.

As a countries 1st responsibility is to its own citizens, the fact that the Su murdered more of its own than any other makes it the worst country ever.

Stalin did not save russia form the Nazis, russians(and ukranians and all the others) did. A competent leader would ahve done it quicker and wouldn't have had most of its army destroyed in the 1st few months.