Why I believe capitalism is morally wrong and evil...

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Ramo

The corporation, for instance, is an incredibly authoritarian, anti-democratic organization. These organizations are strictly hierarchial, orders going top-down. If they called themselves states instead of private businesses, they would universally be considered totalitarian.

WHo cares? They aren't taking money from people to meet their own social agendas, or spread their religion. All corporations do is get the best quality to the costumer at the lowest price. Who cares how the corporation is run? There is no force behind a corporation. Governements use the barrel of a gun, and nothing more. Corporations use incentives, nothing more.

Originally posted by monkspider
But the fact remains there is nothing intristically atheist about the economic system of Communism. In fact, on the contrary, a system of sharing and brotherhood is much more in sync with Christ's teachings than the system that capitalism creates, with it's greed, exploitation, violence, swallowing up the weak, and so forth.

There is nothing about capitalism which means it has to be imperialist, exploitive or violent. Just because current American "capitalism" is, doesn't mean that's the way it has to be. Capitalism is how most societies have always functioned, even with the barter system. It is the natural way of mankind. It is a way to share without being the one doing all the work.

Originally posted by monkspider
They are secretive, they have no accountability, they are built on a hierarchy system where only

They have accountability to the consumer and to the stockholders.

Originally posted by Chegitz Guevera
So when we commies talk about human nature, and how human societies have evolved, we aren't just talking out of our collective asses. We actually know what we're talking about.

Really, then how come every time one of your ideals get put into practice it becomes a brutal tyranny? Because Communists are control freaks. They think they know how the world works, as you so boldly just stated, and anybody who doesn't fall in line.... KGB time.


What about Adam Smith? Frederic Bastiat? The latest Nobel Economics winner was an economic Libertarian.

Originally posted by Chegitz Guevera
You can talk all about how greed is normal under all conditions, but for the most part pre-civilized society, food was rather plentiful.

What an ignorant comment. That's why the mammoths were followed across the Behring straight. People loved the cold heather. Fact is, finding food in "pre-civilized" society was the daily focus of most peoples.


Your communism has been tried, and time and time again, it has failed. Marx wrote a very convincing argument. But real world application will never work.

[Ming]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I love some of the comments, unless I'm an anthropologist, unless I'm two million years old. Ming, I take you're a creationist then?

No... just a man who studied science... Homo sapiens have been on this planet for no more than 100 to 300 thousands years...

Now, if you you wish to consider Homo sapiens earlier evolutions, Homo erectus were in the 1.5 to 2.0 million years ago range... but hardly what we could consider real humans...

[Ramo]

When there are hundreds of employer's offers to accept, I don't feel that that is immoral in any way.

Well, that really depends on the situation you're looking at. Capitalism is a far larger problem in the third world than in the West.

My new response is, "What's wrong with that?"

In most cases, to survive one must give up your liberty to an employer... I see that as fundamentally unjust.

I'm working for myself at the moment. People pay good money for semi-professional landscaping.

Yep, and I have absolutely no problem with working for oneself or, more generally, worker ownership and control of businesses. Both of which I consider to be socialism.

[Capt Dizle]

I think there is a problem with how much influence corporate profits have on elections. Too much.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Ramo
Yep, and I have absolutely no problem with working for oneself or, more generally, worker ownership and control of businesses. Both of which I consider to be socialism.

The thing is that I can start my own business, but I can't start my own nation. That's why the exploitative business/exploitative government analogy is flawed.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Ramo

In most cases, to survive one must give up your liberty to an employer... I see that as fundamentally unjust.

It's only eight hours a day and you don't have to. You can open a hotdog stand. You can open a janitorial service, floor waxing business, junk removal business, land scaping, air duct cleaning, newspaper stand, sell Amway, Avon or Mary Kay, carpet cleaning........

Me, I'd rather work for an employer, and give up my Liberty, than do their job of selling their product, or risking their money on some un-glamorous undertaking, like septic pumping, or garbage removal. Capitalism is how we get people to do these jobs.

Every Communist I have ever met doesn't believe they should be in the dirt working. That job is for some other "equal". No, every communist wants to be a lawyer, or a doctor, a politician or an "artist", Perhaps a factory 9-5er.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
I think there is a problem with how much influence corporate profits have on elections. Too much.

I agree. However, I believe we as a people handed a gift by our forefathers have a way to change the government, therefore the power to create un-influential corporations. But the Democrats or Republicans certainly are not going to ever wake up and really try to stop corporate influence.

[Ramo]

WHo cares? They aren't taking money from people to meet their own social agendas, or spread their religion.

Err... there are plenty of coporate donations to churches and certainly campaign contributions to politicans running on certain social agendas.

All corporations do is get the best quality to the costumer at the lowest price. Who cares how the corporation is run?

I do. I don't like authoritarianism. I don't like subjecting myself to it, nor do I like others being subjected to it.

There is no force behind a corporation. Governements use the barrel of a gun, and nothing more. Corporations use incentives, nothing more.

Not really. Corporations use the barrel of a gun to enforce property claims they make. They use the barrel of a gun to enforce whatever coercive policies they bribe their governments into implementing.

The thing is that I can start my own business, but I can't start my own nation. That's why the exploitative business/exploitative government analogy is flawed.

But starting one's own business is a major special case. It isn't practical for the vast majority of cases. Creating one's own government is also possible, provided one has the resources. It just isn't all that practical.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Ramo

Not really. Corporations use the barrel of a gun to enforce property claims they make. They use the barrel of a gun to enforce whatever coercive policies they bribe their governments into implementing.

Then who is the guilty one? The Government, who has the ABSOLUTE authority of Life and death, and can choose not to accept the "bribe" of the corporation, or the corporation, who offers the bribe?

They are both corrupt, but our duty as American Citizens should be to see that our government not take these bribes.

[Ramo]

It's only eight hours a day and you don't have to. You can open a hotdog stand. You can open a janitorial service, floor waxing business, junk removal business, land scaping, air duct cleaning, newspaper stand, sell Amway, Avon or Mary Kay, carpet cleaning........

Yep, one can do a number of things to survive without submitting to the authority of others. And I absolutely encourage that. I think that's how all jobs should be.

But the key word there is survive. One wouldn't be able to survive very well on jobs such as these.

Me, I'd rather work for an employer, and give up my Liberty, than do their job of selling their product, or risking their money on some un-glamorous undertaking, like septic pumping, or garbage removal.

That's nice. But I'd prefer not to give up my liberty, thanks.

Capitalism is how we get people to do these jobs.

I don't recall socialist societies such as Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War having problems with filling up jobs you'd consider to be inferior...

Every Communist I have ever met doesn't believe they should be in the dirt working. That job is for some other "equal". No, every communist wants to be a lawyer, or a doctor, a politician or an "artist", Perhaps a factory 9-5er.

Not that I see this as very relevant, but FYI I'm an anarchist, not a communist.

And no, I don't want to "be in the dirt working" (whatever that means). I'd prefer to be a physicist. That's certainly not something that brings in tons of money, nor is particularly glamerous, but is something I think I'd enjoy. I don't see why I should be obligated to do a job which you deem "lower" just because I'm a socialist.

Then who is the guilty one? The Government, who has the ABSOLUTE authority of Life and death, and can choose not to accept the "bribe" of the corporation, or the corporation, who offers the bribe?

I don't see the distinction. Corporations make up nothing more than another arm of the government.

[DinoDoc]

Out of curiosity, could someone explain to me why anti-capitalist advocates have computers, own cars, work for corporations, etc.?

We can take Ramo as an example. His chosen profession has a very high likelyhood of him working for the government. I find that strange.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Ramo

But the key word there is survive. One wouldn't be able to survive very well on jobs such as these.

>>>businesses, they could get very wealthy.

That's nice. But I'd prefer not to give up my liberty, thanks.

>>>Are you rich enough to have that option? Not many are.

I don't recall socialist societies such as Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War having problems with filling up jobs you'd consider to be inferior...

>>>I don't consider any jobs inferior.

Not that I see this as very relevant, but FYI I'm an anarchist, not a communist.

>>>B.S. An anarchist would find without government the barter system, ie CAPITALISM, would find itself a home very nicely. You are what one would call a communo-anarchist.

And no, I don't want to "be in the dirt working" (whatever that means). I'd prefer to be a physicist. That's certainly not something that brings in tons of money, nor is particularly glamerous, but is something I think I'd enjoy. I don't see why I should be obligated to do a job which you deem "lower" just because I'm a socialist.

>>>Socialism is poor at addressing the problem of essential servises. A septic pumper gets paid the same as a restaraunt server. In capitalism, a septic pumper makes roughly 3 or 4 tmes more, even though both can be done by anyone.
Socialism has no septic pumpers.


I don't see the distinction. Corporations make up nothing more than another arm of the government.

>>>Another Arm. They aren't constitutionally another arm. Why have we allowed it? Answer in short, Political Parties.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Out of curiosity, could someone explain to me why anti-capitalist advocates have computers, own cars, work for corporations, etc.?

Because their entire philosophy is all for me and nothing for you, even though they spout equality. Communist revolutionaries showed themselves to be corruptable by power, just like anyone else in the world.

[Ned]

Sava, Why don't you find a nation that is like your vision and simply move there?

The majority in the US are roughly comfortable with the current system. We argue about how to run the US mostly because we have a two party system and we are suppose to argue with each other and call each other's leaders stupid or worse. But neither party wants to destroy the system and replace it with something radicaly different. thus, if you really believe in something radically different, you should try moving.

[Aeson]

The fundamental flaw with capitalism is that it assumes everyone is created equally (not talking equal rights here, but equal talent/ability). Not everyone is born with, taught, or developes the abilities to function equally, and as such the playing field is weighted heavily. The only thing 'equal' about people is that everyone produces to the extent they consume. You get from a person what is put into that person. I know this isn't a popular idea, because it invalidates any claims to 'I'm better than you'. But it's how we function.

Understanding this can only lead to a socialistic distribution of goods. Otherwise people are being rewarded or punished for things outside their control. This doesn't mean that there is can be no incentive. Survival instincts are designed just for that, survival. Once that is taken care of, we provide our own motivations as a society. It's here were capitalism fails again, teaching that the only motivation, or at least the most significant, is the collection of 'stuff'. Physical possessions are not the only thing of value in life, but capitalism assumes it is.

The failings of socialism have been pointed out quite enough on this thread already. It just won't work in it's pure form with the mentality of the average human. We're left with 2 flawed systems which each have their good points... the only intelligent thing is to combine them.

That's been done to some extent; welfare, disability, public works, government regulation of utilities, and public schools (which really need work) are all socialistic programs, added to a capitalistic base. We are working our way to a functional socialism, but it's still a long way off.

My bet... once we can map out the human brain, learn that it really is just an organic computer working with what it's given to work with, everyone will finally be viewed as equal, at least by anyone who is intellectually honest. Then we can get past all the 'but I deserve more' bull. Either that or some capitalist will take advantage of our wiring to set up a matrix like application, getting us to pay for a life long illusion, while our bodies are elsewere doing his bidding.