Bullfighting

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Kramsib
At least a good reasoning from Boris godunov.

Why thank you.

What is moral? Too complicated philosophic discussion about morality, even morality has changed through ages.

While there is a limit to moral relativism, in this instance, all we have to do is point out what is current, common morality. And in the vast majority of the Western world, torturing animals for sport is considered immoral.

What about those cows which spent all their lives being breed to die for giving us meat living in a tiny room? CLAUSTROPHOBIC TORTURE, What about those hens which have their "turns" alterated to produce more eggs? METHABOLIST MANIPULATION

I'm vegetarian, so you won't get an argument from me here.

Human beings make terrible things against animals to keep our lifestyles "****ting" on moral values. Don't make me laugh !.

This is a basic logical fallacy. The commission of atrocities by one party doesn't excuse the commission of said atrocities. At any rate, it is perfectly possible to keep domesticated livestock in healthy, peaceful conditions free from suffering (organic, free-range meat is becoming increasingly popular). Nonetheless, what other people do to animals has no bearing on whether or not bullfighting is animal cruelty or not.

The aim of "Banderillas" is to "tease" the bull, their hooks are only to fix on the top of the bull. The pike is to make the bull bleed and rest energy to the bull.

Exactly. They torture the bull both mentaliy and physically, "teasing" it (when it is likely scared out of its wits anyway), and then stabbing it and making bleed until it is weak. How humane.

These are the real facts, you think they are cruel. Well, I know, I think they are unnecesary, I prefer the lonely fight between the bull and the Torero. The pike is painfull but I think the bull doesn't feel the Banderillas no more than the time when they are stuck. It is a big and a strong animal, remember that.

That in no way indicated it doesn't feel pain, just because it is big and strong. If I stuck a knife into Dolph Lungren's shoulder, I bet it would hurt him just as much as it would Richard Simmons.

But the definitive reasoning is, if there is no bullfighting the specie Lidia Bull will dissapear irremediably.

I repeat, if you don't believe me look for what happened to the donkeys everywhere.

What is more cruel, the killing of some animals or the dissapearing of the whole specie?

And then who would be the worst murderers?

I already answered this. You yourself claim these bulls are bred solely for the sport of bullfighting, it is the purpose of their existence. Yes, it would be far better to let the species die out entirely than to continue to breed them for slaughter like this. Extinction is a fact of nature, 1000s of species of plants and animals become extinct every year, most through no fault of human beings. If the bulls serve no more function to nature, and humans can't domesticate them for other, productive uses, then just let nature take its course, and when the last one dies, it dies. There is no cruelty or murder involved there, just natural selection.

So yes, the worse murderers would still be the Toreros.

[Dis]

cruel to animals?

where is the option it is cruel to humans?

[SpencerH]

What about Portugese (French ?) bullfighting?

[GePap]

gain, spanish bull-fighters are not very sporting- you Kramsib said it yourself. It ruins the spectacle. besides, if as Yaroslav says, there are non-violent bul-fighting methods, then the Lidia bull need not go exteinct, though Boris made some very good points on that.

If those capitalis want to make more money, they should take the best buls, put armor on them, sharp swords at the end of their horns, and [pinn them against 'xtreme matadors', or stupid, reality TV contestants, and sell the product to low-brow television stations ( I would recommend FOX in the US).

O, y porque piensan ustedes dos que son los uniquos que hablan espanol? [damn it, I can never get the right symbols in: how does one add a tilde, or an e(n+~)e?)

[Boris Godunov]

Or we can get bulls with some frickin' laser beams on their heads!

[chequita guevara]

None of Kramsib's arguments give any justification for the torture and slaughter of bulls for entertainment. If the Portugese can have bullfights that don't do this, why can't the Spanish?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
None of Kramsib's arguments give any justification for the torture and slaughter of bulls for entertainment. If the Portugese can have bullfights that don't do this, why can't the Spanish?

Yes, you and GePap raise a good point...if they could have non-lethal bull fighting, then the extinction of the Lydian bull (which kramsib says is the most crucial issue) would be a moot point.

If, however, the Spanish are adamantly opposed to this cahnge, that indicates they are more interested in the bloodthirstiness of the "sport" than any real cultural tradition, doesn't it?

[chequita guevara]

I wonder if we could bring non-lethal bullfighting to the US?



Oh wait, it's called a rodeo.

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by Kramsib


Of course you stopped, when there were no witches left to burn

But that is not an English tradition only, whole Europe had fun burning witches.

What do you think about the case of English foxes? I think you had an interesting riot about it these days?.

I don't agree with fox hunting, nor do the majority of people who live in the UK

[Kramsib]

Portuguese bullfighting is gay. They have lost the symbolism of such a tradition, as I said, bullfighting represents the fight between the "evil" against the "humans", so the demon should die, that is the symbol. Avoiding killing the bull has no sense, it is a tragic fight and one of them has to die (the Torero or the bull, one of them). That is the tradition.

You guys show me the flag of morality to ban bullfighting, and I said you, the world today "****s" on your morality values.

The extinction of Lidia Bulls will not be a fact of natural selection, anyway, in fact, nearly all the species which are in danger of extinction aren't because of natural selection but they are because of the man's hand. I see you don't care if they extinct, you are cruel guys, you are murderers, worst than murderers, because you prefer see die all the race more than change your minds, you are insane men. You said, "if they are not strong enough to survive then let them die", that is real cruelty men. It is hilarious, your animal defending ends in killing an entire race,

Relooking at bullfighting, you can be another symbolism, the death of nature because of the humans.

Now without masks, ... (not really but only a little bit), I don't care if bullfights continue or not, the world today stinks and the world of bullfighting too, if you want to ban bullfighting, I gave you the reasonings, it is cheat, it is a dirty business, there is a dark side of money and cheat behind the scene.

But I am proud of my mind, I can defend or attack bullfighting because I know things about it, I know the beautiful side, the art, the ancient tradition, the vocabulary (do you know what " The Cossio " is? a great diccionary full of expressions which has enriched my language), and the dark side, the cheats, the dirty business, ... I can see further friends, but you gays have decided to criticise us whithout knowledge. And I only hope that you have learned something more about bullfighting (at least something more than hate me)


No dudo de que otras personas hablen español, sólo que no es muy común y a veces, como en el caso de Yaros, cuando no hay manera de expresarse en Inglés y ya que me querÃa decir algo a mà personalmente pues usó el español, eso es todo, no tienes porque sentirte ofendido.

Another question, How many bullfights have you seen guys?

[TheStinger]

I haven't seen a murder doesn't mean i can't say its wrong

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Fez
Look, I am not trying to condescend on anybody... or throw their opinion out... no matter what I said. I am entitled to my opinion.

Yes you are entitled to your oppinion. Your inability to justify bullfighting however is why I bothered to vote on this thread. Surely there must be something you could have said to support this apparently barbarous ritual. Its not a sport. Its not hunting even if the dead bull is eaten. Its just plain cruelty that seems to be a decendent of pagan fertility rights.

It wouldn't be so bad if the matador's attempt to cleanly kill the bull was all that was going on. Its the picadors and those javalins that make it such a needlessly cruel ritual.

[TheStinger]

The bull doesn't even get to live if it kills the bullfighter

[General Ludd]

Kramsib is almost as good at deluding himself as Fez is.

Stoping Bullfights is cruel and damaging to the enviroment, indeed. You're right, it's the people who want to stop bullfighting that's actually killing and torturing the animal - Afterall, leting a species of animal which is bred for torture and death die off is a cruel and murderous thing to do.


I love your use of the word 'gay', too.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by GePap
I don't care if Spaniards continue Bullfighting- heck, the thing that bugs me most is the waste of meat, assuming they don't eat the bull killed (if they do, then I care even less). My main problem with Bullfighting is that it is overly ritualized- more spectacle than anything- its simple in Latin America. Also, make it more interesting by not shaving the bulls horn down- I would not mind seeing a few more bullfighters die as well.... all in the name of sport, of course.

This sums up my feelings pretty well.