Like it or not Euros, we're the best country in the world

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Adalbertus
I can name you these bullies: Germany and France. And the most interesting thing: The Netherlands became independent from Germany only in 1648 (mainly due to the influence of France after Germany was laid in ruins by a joint effort of France and Sweden), at the height of their economic might. After that, the Netherlands declined more than increased in power, and for their size they are still quite powerful. They had Germany and France running over them, and still survived. It's not because of their big army, but because they managed to use one side for their purposes. Good diplomacy.

Sorry for the partial threadjacking but your example here rewrites the history of the Netherlands. I think I see what you were trying to say but you made up the scenario. The Netherlands did not have France and Germany running over them until at least the XIX century. Quite the opposite I would say. Plus, the Netherlands became independent from Spain, not from Germany.

[Bereta_Eder]

USA! USA! USA!

[Serb]

Are you all right?

[Bereta_Eder]

I'm just joking now

[Serb]

Good.
I thought somebody is playing with your login.

[Adalbertus]

Sorry for the partial threadjacking but your example here rewrites the history of the Netherlands. I think I see what you were trying to say but you made up the scenario. The Netherlands did not have France and Germany running over them until at least the XIX century. Quite the opposite I would say. Plus, the Netherlands became independent from Spain, not from Germany.

I'm not really rewriting the history of the Netherlands. I don't have the literature here for the exact dates, so I can only give the basic lines here. First, I understand Germany = Holy Roman Empire. At this time, there was nothing which could be more Germany than this.
About Netherlands: The Netherlands were part of the HRE from when Lotharingia was mainly incorporated into Germany (9xx) until the end of the 30 year's war. They became a territory ruled by the Habsburgs, as Austria was, and as Spain was. Then the Habsburg family split into an "Austrian" and a "Spanish" line, where the Netherlands was part of the "Spanish" line. They were still different territories, but had the same ruler (for Spain, he was king, in the Netherlands, duke, or so). In 1648, they became independent as well of the Habsburg family, as of the Empire.
Until this time, Netherlands was more a geographical than a political term. The painter Peter Paul Rubens usually is called "Dutch", in fact he lived for a long time in Cologne and was born in Siegen (80 km east of Cologne).
There is absolutely no problem in this construction. In 1737, a duke of Hannover became King of England (George I. IIRC). He ruled over two countries, one being part of the HRE. Hannover never was part of England, England never part of Hannover or the HRE. It's only the French who confused territories and their rulers .

OK, with the threat form France and Germany, I mainly meant the French Revolutionary wars, 1792, and WWII.

[Jay Bee]

Well, if I were you I would be very careful with associating the HRE to 'Germany' without explaining what you exactly mean. In addition to the Netherlands, most of Northern Italy, Austria, Switzerland and the Czech Republic were also part of the HRE. Equating all those territories to 'Germany' can lead to much confusion, as I guess you've already noticed.

[Adalbertus]

Yes and no. Austria felt quite German until 1871 - and I guess sometimes even today. As a German, I feel it more German than Switzerland, anyway. And villages with the addition Deutsch-xxx are more ubiquitous in Austria than anywhere else, because it was used to distinguish them from what was called Böhmisch-xxx (meaning Czech-xxx). About the Dutch ... they are Dutch (think about what it means). Northern Italy always felt very independent - but this was for most territories the reason to stay in the HRE: To have some very basic military protection and at the same time much more freedom than in France or the Ottoman Empire. The today's Czech republic is again something special, because it was a patchwork of German and Slavic populations (which to separate was one of the biggest mistakes of 20th century, IMO).
Agreed, it can lead to confusions, if you want to please every today's national feeling, but there was nothing else that could have been called Germany - and the full title (I think adopted in the 15th century) was "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nationen" - which included Germans, Dutch, Czech and Northern Italians (except Venice).

[Adalbertus]

EDIT: DP
Why do I irregularly get logged out?

[Jay Bee]

here is a suggestion: don't call it germany! Just call it the HRE

[Adalbertus]

Too easy (look at my sig).

[johncmcleod]

The Hapsburgs are the most hideously inbred royal family ever.

[Adalbertus]

The Hapsburgs are the most hideously inbred royal family ever

I'm not sure if you can really separate this from all the other European royal families. This was the "inbreeding village".

[Hueij]

About the Dutch ... they are Dutch (think about what it means)

Uhh... What does it mean?

[Adalbertus]

Hueij, I meant the origin of the word "Dutch".