Rugby - Who? Me, Sir? Offside?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


It seems to be predicated on the fact that the Wallabies and Boks will be there anyway as part of their NH tour. Presumably the ABs aren't touring

Yeah, but there is talk of the competition becoming a permanent annual event if it is successful. I agree though, there does need to be more regular competition between the two hemispheres. Its a pity that north v south idea never got off the ground.

[Havak]

Caligastia is right - it's being reported here as if it's a permanent proposal.

One can understand the ABs and all the other 'six' nations sides being somewhat peeved.

Or as one of friends just put it when he read the news - "Excellent. The only competitive game in the six nations now is France, so this is a great idea".

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I can only reliably trace my family through the paternal line about 150 years but my surname establishes our family as being established before the Norman conquest i.e it’s a saxon name in origin. As to whether the original Havak was a Saxon or Angle or Dane (or possibly even a Briton) it’s hard to say. If you trace enough connections you will find all of them no doubt.

I can envisage your grampa at tighthead on the scrum machine on the long boat down from the north warming up for the kick off upon arrival.

A lot of one’s countrymen do not realise what fascinating mix this little Island has in it’s history.

I envy that history too.

You can’t argue with Gloucesters start even if it is painful for a midlander.

I'm waiting for the bubble to burst. Any bandwagon I jump onto promptly pops a bearing. Look at what I've done to poor old Tamerlin.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Yeah, but there is talk of the competition becoming a permanent annual event if it is successful.

I just noticed that. There's absolutely nil reference to the ABs, not even that they turned down the idea. Maybe they just think 4 would be too many. I must look into it.

Edit. There's no mention of it on the NZRFU site. But there's an interesting observation on Planet Rugby:

The new competition could spell the end of the SANZAR Tri-Nations, the current deal for that competition expiring in 2005, as three of the top four nations in world rugby move closer to a synchronised global rugby season.

How long ago was it that the Boks were talking about joining the 6 Nations? Very interesting piece of extrapolation.

Its a pity that north v south idea never got off the ground.

The IRB just re-mooted it (so to speak) as a fundraiser this November and the England and Australian Player Unions knocked it back on the grounds of player fatigue. Yet an alternative that has the same problem is being seriously proposed. I'm not sure that the IRB will warm to the new proposal even if the players and clubs buy it.

[Caligastia]

Interesting quote from planet rugby there. If this new competition was to replace the SANZAR Tri-nations competition I think they would have to at least include the All Blacks. The ideal would be to include France too. I they did that they would have to create another competition for those 6-nations countries left in the cold.

[Havak]

Much as it shames me to admit it Finbar I am the first rugby nut in my family. Before that the paternal line was football all the way. I’m considered something of a black sheep.

I envy that history too.

Whatever your background it’s really your history too – the good and the bad of it – if only for the language you are using to post.

You know thinking about it Finbar you have rather de-railed Toulouse with your support. I only hope you can work the same charm on ‘Glaws’.

Sadly I doubt it – strong squad, good coach, solid captain. Our best bet is still their going bankrupt.

I see the RFU are now denying that the ABs are being excluded, and the concept seems to be a wider one of also scheduling lengthier tours between France/England and the SANZAR nations?

I’m not sure I like the idea of either tri-nations of six nations going though – way too much history there.

By crikey I would like to be at the WRU meeting that takes place right after England did defect though!!!

[Tamerlin]

Havak, Finbar should not be blamed for everything that is going wrong in Rugby, perhaps is it true for most of it but not for all. The Stade Toulousain is often considered as being its own worst opponent and is perfectly able to lose an easy game without any help (except from the referee of course).

A North vs South competition without France or New Zealand would be ridiculous, the sixth nation could be the winner of a tournament between Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy.

Though Havak and I can have a similar opinion I doubt our respective Unions can, so this kind of competition is not ready to be created.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Havak, Finbar should not be blamed for everything that is going wrong in Rugby, perhaps is it true for most of it but not for all.

I think thats reasonable. Youre very fair Tamerlin. Firm, but fair.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Caligastia
You're very fair Tamerlin. Firm, but fair.

Thanks !

[finbar]

Here's the NZRFU's thoughts on the England/Boks/Wallaby series.

There's a distinct tone of left-outedness.

It's also interesting to read the English Union doing a lot of oil-on- potentially-troubled-waters pouring at Planet Rugby.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Much as it shames me to admit it Finbar I am the first rugby nut in my family. Before that the paternal line was football all the way. I’m considered something of a black sheep.

Mmmmm. But you know what they say about throwbacks in families. If I ever hear of you hurling yourself to the ground in some penalty box somewhere clutching at some part of your anatomy and squealing for a penalty - you're in big trouble!

Whatever your background it’s really your history too – the good and the bad of it – if only for the language you are using to post.

You're most generous. I would still rather own it than get my kicks vicariously.

You know thinking about it Finbar you have rather de-railed Toulouse with your support. I only hope you can work the same charm on ‘Glaws’.

I'm thinking of taking up barracking for George W. Bush - the man whose only ever dream, I kid you not, was to run one of the national baseball leagues - for obvious reasons.

Sadly I doubt it – strong squad, good coach, solid captain. Our best bet is still their going bankrupt.

I'm starting up a Save The Gloucester RFC Fund. I know I can count on you for at least a couple of bits of lint from the bottom of one of your pockets.

I see the RFU are now denying that the ABs are being excluded, and the concept seems to be a wider one of also scheduling lengthier tours between France/England and the SANZAR nations?

Methinks there's some placating going on, as I suggested in my last post. And, as it happens, the NZRFU is saying they want fewer matches of higher quality. That, I suspect, is pretty heavy-handed code for ditching the S12.

I’m not sure I like the idea of either tri-nations of six nations going though – way too much history there.

Yes, but it seems to me that if the game is going to be truly international - by which I mean parallel seasons (as much as that's possible) - then the hemisphere-based comps would have to go in order to clear the way. I suppose it depends, ultimately, on what value is placed on the game being truly international. Or, in fact, whether it ever can be.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Havak, Finbar should not be blamed for everything that is going wrong in Rugby, perhaps is it true for most of it but not for all. The Stade Toulousain is often considered as being its own worst opponent and is perfectly able to lose an easy game without any help (except from the referee of course).

Yes, Tamerlin, but you must admit they've suffered since I've been on the bandwagon. I'm prepared to jump off again for 50 francs. Yes, I know it's all Euros now, but I refuse to acknowledge them. One of my great delights pottering around Europe was changing money. They called me the Human Calculator.

A North vs South competition without France or New Zealand would be ridiculous

If it's to be a comprehensive competition, you're quite right.

Though Havak and I can have a similar opinion I doubt our respective Unions can, so this kind of competition is not ready to be created.

[Havak]

A North vs South competition without France or New Zealand would be ridiculous

Well said!

Though Havak and I can have a similar opinion I doubt our respective Unions can, so this kind of competition is not ready to be created

Money will be the stumbling block. The RFU has many faults, but it knows how to rake in the cash. This proposal is largely about sharing the wealth. For example this November the RFU will keep well over 90% of the revenue from the three fixtures which is very lucrative. Were England to tour NZ the NZRFU would do the same (though in purely cash terms that won’t gain them the same level of income I suspect).

We do need to be careful that the developing nations – like Wales – are not totally excluded?

It's also interesting to read the English Union doing a lot of oil-on- potentially-troubled-waters pouring at Planet Rugby.

Well it needed doing I think, and probably better left to the English. I mean can you imaging O’Neil trying diplomacy? At the same time it is partly self created as a problem – they persistently avoid England during their vacations to the NH – for example they were up here last year but avoided us to play Celts if I recall – what is the point of that, and why should they be surprised if we hold a party and don’t invite them after all the invites they have snubbed? I’ll give this to Australia – they are always willing to play us be it here or down under.
I have to say Finbar if you ever catch me playing soccer I will accept whatever censure the committee here passes on me. I do however have to reserve the right that I may still clutch parts of my anatomy and scream for a penalty (“penalty sir?”) just in case I get on a rugger pitch again.

I would still rather own it than get my kicks vicariously.

Well it’s rich but it isn’t unqualifiedly great (please excuse my suspect grammar). I enjoy my nations history but I am not as close minded about it as some nationalists. There are some nasty dark chapters and as is ever the case those chapters tend to be the most interesting.

I'm starting up a Save The Gloucester RFC Fund

A noble cause indeed. I’ll start collecting lint now.

That, I suspect, is pretty heavy-handed code for ditching the S12.

Do you really think so? I wouldn’t be totally surprised to be honest as it is easy to see what S12 does for the Wallabies but it is less clear what it does for the ABs – NZ has high class domestic competition to fall back on as oft mentioned here.

what value is placed on the game being truly international

I think we need to set more modest targets. A global season is very ambitious and would only ever happen if you moved to match our pattern I suspect. Rugby in summer is OZ – talk about hard ground!!

Seriously I can’t ever see the English adjusting their season away from winter so it’s a non-starter. And sure fewer higher quality games make a great sound bite but the reality is it needs a ground up re-working of the game – it’s unlikely to say the least?

And it’s hard to convey, though I know I have tried before, but there’s a hard core here who care more about smashing the Welsh regularly than about close tough matches with SANZAR opponents. That attitude would need to be overcome as well. A tricky proposal.

They called me the Human Calculator.

Are you sure you heard them correctly?

My tour party has already encountered problems with the Euro -, on a scouting mission to Brussels last week the locals refused to take Irish Euros from them. So what is the point of a single currency again?

This is where Europe went wrong you see – there is a ready made single currency, it’s called ‘Sterling’.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
We do need to be careful that the developing nations – like Wales – are not totally excluded?

I appreciate the irony.

Well it needed doing I think, and probably better left to the English. I mean can you imaging O’Neil trying diplomacy?

Well, he did set aside 3,000 tickets at the WRC final specifically for AB fans. I haven't heard them say thank you.

At the same time it is partly self created as a problem – they persistently avoid England during their vacations to the NH – for example they were up here last year but avoided us to play Celts if I recall – what is the point of that, and why should they be surprised if we hold a party and don’t invite them after all the invites they have snubbed?

Well, they prefer the Celts because, on the NZRFU website, they say they want fewer matches of higher quality. I imagine there's a kind of logic in there somewhere.

I’ll give this to Australia – they are always willing to play us be it here or down under.

And why not? A joust against the Old Country in any sport is good stuff.

I do however have to reserve the right that I may still clutch parts of my anatomy and scream for a penalty (“penalty sir?”) just in case I get on a rugger pitch again.

I imagine you've lost a bit of your nip over the first five yards?

Well it’s rich but it isn’t unqualifiedly great (please excuse my suspect grammar). I enjoy my nations history but I am not as close minded about it as some nationalists. There are some nasty dark chapters and as is ever the case those chapters tend to be the most interesting.

That's the point, I think - good, bad, ugly, it's rich and interesting, sometimes to be condemned, often to be celebrated, and can still inform life today. But if you ain't got it, none of the preceding can apply.

Do you really think so? I wouldn’t be totally surprised to be honest as it is easy to see what S12 does for the Wallabies but it is less clear what it does for the ABs – NZ has high class domestic competition to fall back on as oft mentioned here.

The Kiwis are well known to want to be rid of the S12. As you say, they don't need it. OTOH, we do.

I think we need to set more modest targets. A global season is very ambitious and would only ever happen if you moved to match our pattern I suspect. Rugby in summer is OZ – talk about hard ground!!

Summer wouldn't work, but spring or autumn would.

Seriously I can’t ever see the English adjusting their season away from winter so it’s a non-starter. And sure fewer higher quality games make a great sound bite but the reality is it needs a ground up re-working of the game – it’s unlikely to say the least?

The latter point's the key, I think. The sort of cooperation between the various Unions required to pull off a global season is immensely unlikely.

And it’s hard to convey, though I know I have tried before, but there’s a hard core here who care more about smashing the Welsh regularly than about close tough matches with SANZAR opponents. That attitude would need to be overcome as well. A tricky proposal.

I can understand the desire to smash the Welsh. It parallels the Australia-New Zealand situation, though the quality of the oppo is marginally different in our case.

So what is the point of a single currency again?

Don't get me started on it! Creeping homogenisation driven by the money men.

[Havak]

I haven't heard them say thank you.

I would not expect to be deafened by it.

Or to coin your own phrase I do appreciate the irony.

I imagine there's a kind of logic in there somewhere.

There is a twisted logic yes – “fewer matches of higher quality” could be read as “more matches of lower quality”. This of course is what you implied.

And why not? A joust against the Old Country in any sport is good stuff.

I agree in a qualified way. I like it to be sports where the clash is at least competitive. So I will not be glued to the ashes it is safe to say.

Rowing, of all things, seems to be an area where we can compete. Shame it’s so boring then really.

I imagine you've lost a bit of your nip over the first five yards?

“lost” would imply it was there to begin with.

if you ain't got it, none of the preceding can apply.

Excellent point. I particularly like your remark on the way it can inform life today, too few people understand that very thing.

I have to say I worry for Australia on the S12 then. It’s very hard to keep people involved in something they have no interest in, so if NZ truly want out I am sure they will find an opportunity.

Summer wouldn't work, but spring or autumn would.

What months would that be? Thinking about it our season runs Autumn-Spring already (Aug-May)

The sort of cooperation between the various Unions required to pull off a global season is immensely unlikely.

A snowball would have a better chance of having a long and successful career in hell I would suggest.

though the quality of the oppo is marginally different in our case.

There are extended parallels though. They used to be better than us, then we drew level, then we left them in our dust. All you need to do is do the latter to the ABs and the cases will match entirely.

Creeping homogenisation driven by the money men

Can you truly imagine my countrymen ever being fully homogenised into Europeans?