sad thoughts on poly posters

[JCG]

Exactly right on the Guderian count.


It's true that German capacity wasn't even close to matching Russian or American ones, but even then, Hitler did NO serious attempts in the early war years to give the needed priority to war production and armaments standards, short of loose rhetoric.

[Capt Dizle]

Well, the way the Werhmacht ran amok he didn't think he needed to.

[JCG]

Which was one of his mistakes.

[Serb]

Originally posted by tinyp3nis

The side of the story we hear is that finland was no real threat,

Oh really? It wasn't you who was allied with Hitler in 1941/ It wasn't your army who fought on Hitler's side? It wasn't you who was on of the AXIS countries?

and after seeing what happened to estonia and the other 2 baltic countries dealing with land would not be a smart idea... you know what happened to them

You couldn't saw this. Sovet-Finnish war last 100 days of winter 1939-1940. At March 12 1940 you signed pact with Soviets, surrender territories Soviets wanted and the war was over. Baltic states were annexed by Soviet Union in August 2 1940- almost 6 months after Soviet-Finnish war was over. So, I don't see logic in your argument.

[GeneralTacticus]

Oh really? It wasn't you who was allied with Hitler in 1941/ It wasn't your army who fought on Hitler's side? It wasn't you who was on of the AXIS countries?

Ironic really. You make an enemy of finland and then complain when they try to get revenge.

[JCG]

Sad thing that in the end, the Finns may have been slightly better off if they had agreed to the Russian demands however harsh they might have sounded, or if the Allies had landed troops there early, as was (more or less) considered for a while...

[Serb]

Ironic really. You make an enemy of finland and then complain when they try to get revenge.

Yep, exactly
Anyhow, beeing in AXIS is wrong
And btw, Poland made a SU an enemy in 1921 and then complained when Soviets get revenge in 1939 and returned all lands Poland took from Soviets.
*waiting for Heresson *

[GeneralTacticus]

Anyhow, beeing in AXIS is wrong

Yes, but seeing as how it was probably as a result of Soviet actions that Finland allied with Germany in the first place, you can't use it to justify the Winter War.

[Serb]

Originally posted by JCG
Sad thing that in the end, the Finns may have been slightly better off if they had agreed to the Russian demands however harsh they might have sounded, or if the Allies had landed troops there early, as was (more or less) considered for a while...

At the beggining it weren't demands, but an offer. And a good offer for Finland. They could recieve larger territory in exchange for their lands near Leningrad. I guess they don't trust to Stalin, but Stalin don't trust to them too.
Honestly I don't know what could happen if they accepted this offer. More likely they would involved anyway. Finland was too good as bridgehead against SU and Hitler couldn't lost such opportunity. So I guess they would be invaded anyway, if not by Stalin, then by Hitler (if they would refused to give him right of passage).

[GeneralTacticus]

I doubt it would have been worth it for Hitler to invade Finland as a bridgehead against the Soviets. It would have been as good as an announcement to Stalin that he was going to be invaded, and he would then probably have just moved in and taken what he wanted. There probably wouldn't have been much resistance.

[Serb]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Yes, but seeing as how it was probably as a result of Soviet actions that Finland allied with Germany in the first place, you can't use it to justify the Winter War.

I'm not trying to justify Stalin, agression is agression. Stalin tried to solve this deal peacefully, they refused. It's their leagal right to refuse an offer, if they don't want to sign it. Stalin has no right to attack them, even consider that it saved Leningrad from occupation in future.

And btw, Stalin don't consider it as war, but only as border skirmish.

[GeneralTacticus]

Strange sense of proprtion that man had...

[Serb]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
I doubt it would have been worth it for Hitler to invade Finland as a bridgehead against the Soviets.

I said only if they would refuse to gave him right of passage.

It would have been as good as an announcement to Stalin that he was going to be invaded, and he would then probably have just moved in and taken what he wanted. There probably wouldn't have been much resistance.

Why? Hitler already took almoust entire Europe, just another territory in Hitler's collection. And Stalin perfectly knew that Hitler will attack SU sooner or later. The whole Finnish issue was started by Stalin to protect Soviet Northern capital from German attack. If border wasn't removed from Leningrad in 1940, in 1941 Leningrad more probably felt, because in this case they attacked from 32km distance instead of 250km distance.
Resistance? Yes of course, but Germany could attack through Norway where Finns didn't have such strong fortifications as they had on Russian frontier.

[GeneralTacticus]

Stalin perfectly knew that Hitler will attack SU sooner or later.

Then why did he discount every piece of intelligence that was sent to him indicating that Hitler was going to attack?

Resistance? Yes of course, but Germany could attack through Norway where Finns didn't have such strong fortifications as they had on Russian frontier.

I'm saying that if Stalin just moved in after the Germans to establish a buffer zone, the Finns would most likely have their hands full with Hitler.

[Serb]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Strange sense of proprtion that man had...

No, it's not about his senses. Full-scale war vs. Finland could lead to war between GB and France against SU. French were ready to send 150 000 expedition forces to fight Soviets. Brits almost declared war on SU. If Soviets didn't stop and made an attempt to occupy all Finland, then we were enemies with GB and France in the WW2.

Sure Stalin predicted this. He ordered to made this "operation" as "silence" as possible. He ordered to use forces only of Leningrad's military district for this campaign, he gave all command to head of Leningrad's military district and send HQ staff of Red army to vacation on Black Sea. If he declared full-scale war against Finland and ordered to use all regiments of Red army, then GB and France declared war on SU at the same moment.