This Is the Kind of Crap that Pisses Me Off

[Bosh]

I'm all for letting the white farmers come over here, and have us cut off all aid. Then we'll see how well the blacks do when they have 'equality'.

International aid really doesn't add up to that much, hell First World farm subsidies hurt the Third World at least as much as foreign aid helps.

[C0ckney]

That would be the case if they hadn't dispossesed all the white farmers, however now international aid could prevent starvation on a mass scale. But as far as I'm concerned to hell with Zimbabwe, we owe them nothing.

[Bereta_Eder]

Hasn't the EU enfocred an embargo there?

[C0ckney]

Some limited sanctions, assert freezing and the like for the ruling elite. Hasn't really had much effect, because sanctions rarely affect the actions of a government (see Iraq).

[*End Is Forever*]

Mugabe would like nothing more than to turn this whole disaster into a racism issue in which he could unite most of Africa against the "colonial power". Sadly for the average Zimbabwean, that isn't the case.

This isn't about race. This is about power, and more specifically Mugabe holding on to it. There have been some awful cases of persecution, torture and murder of white farmers, but the bare truth is that the average black Zimbabwean is now starving and penniless because of Robert Mugabe's evil reign. He bankrupted the country sending the military to fights conflicts (notably in DR Congo, I think) that he had no reason to involve himself in, and his persecution of landowning farmers (both white and black) has meant that the majority of his country is now starving.

He then fixed his own election through ballot-rigging, intimidation and violence, before accusing the MDC (Movement for Democratic Change) leader Morgan Tsvangirai of treason. He then sought to "punish" the regions that voted against him despite the intimidation (see links below) by withholding food aid.

Mugabe is a monster. This isn't about black and white. This is about an evil dictator that is prepared to sacrifice his citizens, whatever their colour, in order to cling to power.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2163328.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2159418.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2157949.stm

[David Floyd]

Seriously, I don't think the ANC has done a bang up job, but for the most part, the only dramatic change has been that the squalid conditions of the black areas have been expanded into the white areas.

So basically instead of one group getting screwed, everyone gets screwed. Sounds like progress to me

There really wasn't anything for black SA's to fall back on. This isn't to excuse the rampant crime, etc. -

No it does not excuse the crime, in any way, shape, or form, but an argument could be made that the blacks were better - ie safer - under white rule because of a much lower crime rate.

I'm just pointing that when you release an underclass that forms the vast majority of the population from brutal opression, you shouldn't expect everything to be rosey...

And, obviously, you shouldn't expect those same people to NOT be hypocrites, either, and do the same to the whites that the whites did to them

[SnowFire]

che- didn't you yourself say in one of the Palestine threads that removed peoples have about 3 generations to reclaim their land, in your mind, before it passes to the conquerors? IE grandchildren who knew people who still once owned the land? If you still stand by that statement, haven't the 3 generations passed by now? (then again, maybe Zimbabwe was an exception and was only colonized in the '20's? Somehow I doubt that)

Also, saying the land was stolen coming from a communist, among whom famous sayings include "all property is robbery," tend to mean little. Even if it is fact true in this case.

[orange]

what he's attempting to accomplish is somewhat noble. However, the means are atrocious and without clear thought involved.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Those farmers should just take what they can while they leave, and their torch their land, and put salt in the ground.

No they shouldn't.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Frogger
No they shouldn't.

Because they will be shot?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Private property that was taken by force from the original people. All that land is stolen property to begin with. None of the whites there have a legitimate claim to the land. Their ancestors didn't buy the land, they conquered the savages and then prevented them by law from owning any land. If you are in possession of stolen property, you don't have any rights to it. And unlike the American Indians, the local Africans did believe they owned the land.

From a national standpoint, Mugabe is shooting the country in the foot. Even if all the land is farmed, food production is going to collapse. I doubt most of the people who get land will know who to farm it well enough to produce the same kinds of surpluses that the previous farmers did.

Exactly the point. David, you're astounding; how is re-expropriating expropriated land wrong?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Because they will be shot?

Because they would be condemning even more people to starvation than the muddleheaded actions of Mugabe already are.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by SnowFire
che- didn't you yourself say in one of the Palestine threads that removed peoples have about 3 generations to reclaim their land, in your mind, before it passes to the conquerors? IE grandchildren who knew people who still once owned the land? If you still stand by that statement, haven't the 3 generations passed by now? (then again, maybe Zimbabwe was an exception and was only colonized in the '20's? Somehow I doubt that)

Also, saying the land was stolen coming from a communist, among whom famous sayings include "all property is robbery," tend to mean little. Even if it is fact true in this case.

The difference is that the blacks didn't go away and come back later, nor is this a new issue; Zimbabwe was only given "democratic" home rule in the last 30(?) years. Black zimbabweans were kept from reacquiring possession of their former property by a system of racist/colonialist laws which are in the living memory of many inhabitants.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
Mugabe would like nothing more than to turn this whole disaster into a racism issue in which he could unite most of Africa against the "colonial power". Sadly for the average Zimbabwean, that isn't the case.

This isn't about race. This is about power, and more specifically Mugabe holding on to it. There have been some awful cases of persecution, torture and murder of white farmers, but the bare truth is that the average black Zimbabwean is now starving and penniless because of Robert Mugabe's evil reign. He bankrupted the country sending the military to fights conflicts (notably in DR Congo, I think) that he had no reason to involve himself in, and his persecution of landowning farmers (both white and black) has meant that the majority of his country is now starving.

He then fixed his own election through ballot-rigging, intimidation and violence, before accusing the MDC (Movement for Democratic Change) leader Morgan Tsvangirai of treason. He then sought to "punish" the regions that voted against him despite the intimidation (see links below) by withholding food aid.

Mugabe is a monster. This isn't about black and white. This is about an evil dictator that is prepared to sacrifice his citizens, whatever their colour, in order to cling to power.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2163328.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2159418.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2157949.stm

Exactly. However, I have the sneaking suspicion that most people here and in the media are only giving this as much attention as they are because Mugabe's dared to drive white farmers out...

Land reform/redistribution in Zimbabwe is perfectly justifiable. It's unfortunate that it's being run as a ****ing joke, and will end up with thousands starving...

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Frogger
Exactly. However, I have the sneaking suspicion that most people here and in the media are only giving this as much attention as they are because Mugabe's dared to drive white farmers out...

In most of the media reports of the violence that I have seen, the white farmers who get attacked are named in the articles while the names of the black farmers are not mentioned. In other words, the white farmers are given a human face while the black farmers are just part of a nameless horde.

There's also the question of whether the whites should be described as farmers. The term "farmer" invokes the image of people working the land. The whites in Zimbabwe are more like landowners or plantation owners. On average, they employ 70 people.