This Is the Kind of Crap that Pisses Me Off

[chequita guevara]

Private property that was taken by force from the original people. All that land is stolen property to begin with. None of the whites there have a legitimate claim to the land. Their ancestors didn't buy the land, they conquered the savages and then prevented them by law from owning any land. If you are in possession of stolen property, you don't have any rights to it. And unlike the American Indians, the local Africans did believe they owned the land.

From a national standpoint, Mugabe is shooting the country in the foot. Even if all the land is farmed, food production is going to collapse. I doubt most of the people who get land will know who to farm it well enough to produce the same kinds of surpluses that the previous farmers did.

[Kropotkin]

No laughing matter, Africa clearly needs the stable and firm leadership of a new Leopold II. Are you up for the challenge David?

[David Floyd]

Private property that was taken by force from the original people. All that land is stolen property to begin with. None of the whites there have a legitimate claim to the land. Their ancestors didn't buy the land, they conquered the savages and then prevented them by law from owning any land. If you are in possession of stolen property, you don't have any rights to it. And unlike the American Indians, the local Africans did believe they owned the land.

Good point - and if you can find any living people who were robbed of their land, I'm all for restitution. But the fact is that it happened far enough ago that no one on either side is alive. The current blacks have lost nothing, and the current whites have taken nothing. I see no reason to force the whites to give up the land, and in essence destroy their way of life, in order to make everyone's life equally ****ty. Again, look what happened in South Africa after the whites were thrown out of power. That isn't racist, it's a simple fact - South Africa is now a ****hole.

But in any case, how does allowing random blacks to occupy random farmland count as just restitution?

From a national standpoint, Mugabe is shooting the country in the foot. Even if all the land is farmed, food production is going to collapse. I doubt most of the people who get land will know who to farm it well enough to produce the same kinds of surpluses that the previous farmers did.

Yes, we've already established Mugabe is a ****ing idiot.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Che: I believe the statute of limitations has already expired on that one .

[Goingonit]

Unfortunately, land was stolen in the colonial era. However, by remedying these wrongs, Zimbabwe is destroying itself and wronging those who are affected.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Che: I believe the statute of limitations has already expired on that one .

Isn't it statues of limitations?



anyone?

[Pekka]

If there was a plan to topple this Mugabe guy, I woudln't oppose it a second. I'd love to be in the troops chasing his sorry butts head.

[Hagbart]

The problem is that these "few" farmers (white or black) own a very big percent of the farmland, while the ordinary people have very little land and have to work on land that is not their own.

[Goingonit]

Unfortunately, if America or England (the two most probable candidates) were to try and get rid of Mugabe, all of the 3rd World, plus South Africa and probably much of Europe, would be all over it with the anti-colonialism rhetoric. Mugabe would also regain popular support in a big way.

[Al B. Sure!]

Floyd et al:

Mugabe wants some sort of equality. It's a fact that the average white Zimbabwean has far more land and money than the average black zimbabwean. It's also a fact that this situation arose not through any legitamate purchase but by the force of superior weapons. This superiority of force is now in the hands of the blacks so why should they not have the ability to do the same that the british did? Of course it is 'wrong' but so was the cause of the fact that whites possess far more property in Zimbabwe.


thanks

[David Floyd]

The problem is that these "few" farmers (white or black) own a very big percent of the farmland, while the ordinary people have very little land and have to work on land that is not their own.

Why is this a problem?

Speer,

Mugabe wants some sort of equality. It's a fact that the average white Zimbabwean has far more land and money than the average black zimbabwean.

Why is this, on its own, a problem?

It's also a fact that this situation arose not through any legitamate purchase but by the force of superior weapons.

Yes, but as has already been pointed out, any reasonable statute of limitations on theft has long expired. No one living has stolen any land, and no one living has had land stolen from them.

This superiority of force is now in the hands of the blacks so why should they not have the ability to do the same that the british did?

Obviously because they would become hypocrites, and would be using force against innocent people.

Of course it is 'wrong' but so was the cause of the fact that whites possess far more property in Zimbabwe.

Yes, the original circumstances were wrong, but there is nothing wrong with the situation as it stands today.

And, one final time, if you want an example of what happens when the blacks throw the whites out of power and start to reverse the roles (the blacks being the ones who start discriminating and being racist, etc.), just look at South Africa. This is not a good idea for more reason than one.

[Pekka]

goingonit, I disagree. I think euros would not complain about it, only small minority. We do see mugabe as a bad guy and someone, who can't continue in his place.

[C0ckney]

I'm all for letting the white farmers come over here, and have us cut off all aid. Then we'll see how well the blacks do when they have 'equality'.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Hagbart
The problem is that these "few" farmers (white or black) own a very big percent of the farmland, while the ordinary people have very little land and have to work on land that is not their own.

Assuming this is true, why is this a problem or undesirable. In the breadbasket of canada, farms have gotten larger and larger and more mechanized with greater efficiencies, higher production and less employment. farms has to get larger to compete.

Now in this land reform, if the idea is to give the lands to a lot of black people, you will probably have a whole lot of subsistence farming and overall less production than you would have had with fewer farmers, each with more resources to maintain production levels.

Splitting out the land is a recipe for subsistence living


On a broader note, I am sick of the " you took something from my ancestors 500 years ago so I am entitled to retribution" argument. Almost every ethnicity you would care to name has conquered somebody or someplace at some point in their history. get over it already and deal with addressing the inequities of today

[Kontiki]

Yes, South Africa was a much better place when it was a playground for the whites essentially serviced by black slave labour, who were then penned back up in their ghettos after a day's work.

Seriously, I don't think the ANC has done a bang up job, but for the most part, the only dramatic change has been that the squalid conditions of the black areas have been expanded into the white areas. There really wasn't anything for black SA's to fall back on. This isn't to excuse the rampant crime, etc. - I'm just pointing that when you release an underclass that forms the vast majority of the population from brutal opression, you shouldn't expect everything to be rosey...